Posted on 03/30/2013 2:42:00 PM PDT by NYer
· After his election, he came down from platform to greet the cardinal electors, rather than have them come up to his level to offer obedience.
· He appeared on the loggia without the red cape. (The BBC report, unconfirmed, is that he said to his aide, “No thank you, Monsignore. You put it on instead. Carnival time is over.”)
· In his greeting he referred to himself only as “bishop,” not as "pope."
· He referred to Benedict as “bishop emeritus,” not “pope emeritus.”
· He appeared without the stole, only putting it on to give the blessing. He then took it off in public (!), as if he couldn’t wait to get it off.
· He asked for the people’s blessing before he blessed them.
· He doesn’t wear red shoes.
· Or white stockings.
· Or cuff links.
· He rode the bus back to the residence with the cardinals rather than take the papal limousine.
· When he went to Mary Major to pray, he declined the papal Mercedes and took a Volkswagen Passat.
· On his way back from Mary Major, he stopped at his pre-conclave hotel to get his luggage and pay his own bill.
· Though he has taken possession of the apostolic palace, he continued to receive guests at St. Martha’s House rather than the palace.
· He drank Argentinian tea in public when receiving the Argentinian president – protocol is that popes are seen publicly consuming no food or drink except the Eucharist.
· His first Mass with cardinals was celebrated facing the people. (Pope Benedict started this way, but then did a “reform of the reform” and celebrated at the old high altar in the Sistine Chapel facing away from the congregation. Apparently this has been reversed.)
· He doesn’t chant the prayers, he recites them – but this could be because of an impaired lung or his singing ability.
· The wall of candles between celebrant and congregation, another of Pope Benedict’s “reform of the reform,” was moved away with three candles on each side of the altar.
· At his inauguration Mass, photos show that the candles were originally set up across the front of the altar, but by Mass time they had been moved to the side.
· The crucifix on the altar was a small one at his first Mass.
· He wore his own simple miter from Argentina, not the papal miter.
· He preached from the ambo without miter – rather like a simple parish priest. (The concelebrating cardinals gradually realized what was going on and had to remove the miters they had started to put on after the Gospel reading.)
· He brushed aside the prepared Latin homily and preached in Italian without text.
· In general, less lace.
· His hands are folded during the liturgy, not the pious (some say prissy) way with palms together.
· He didn’t genuflect at the Supper Narrative of the Eucharistic Prayer – is this really because of bad knees?
· He asked the cardinals not to wear their red cardinals’ robes, but black.
· He stood on the floor of the Clementine Hall to greet the cardinals rather than sit on the throne on the platform.
· He called them “brother cardinals” rather than “Lord cardinals.”
· He bent to kiss the ring of a cardinal who kissed his ring.
· At his meeting with over 5,000 journalists, after Archbishop Celli introduced him, he got up to walk over to him (popes don’t do that) and thanked him.
· He didn’t bless the journalists like popes do, since not all of them are Catholic or believers. Instead he prayed for them in silence, then simply said “God bless you.”
· After the meeting with journalists, he waved away the papal limousine and walked to the Vatican residence.
· When he saw the papal apartments he said, “There’s room for 300 people here. I don’t need all this space.” He has yet to move into the apartments, and some wonder whether he will.
· At Mass Sunday at the Vatican parish Sunday morning, he gave the Kiss of Peace to the deacons and Master of Ceremonies, not just the concelebrants. This is breaking the rules – but perhaps also a nice show of support for MC Marini, who must be reeling from all the sudden changes.
· The deacon didn’t kneel before Pope Francis for the blessing before the gospel (as they did for John Paul II and Benedict XVI).
· He doesn’t wear the dalmatic. Pope Benedict revived the practice, not foreseen in the reformed liturgical books, of wearing this deacon’s vestment under his papal vestments.
· He doesn’t distribute Communion as the missal foresees of the celebrant, but is seated while others do so.
· He listened to the words of the Patriarch of Constantinople seated on an armchair rather than the throne that is customarily used in the Clementine Hall. When he thanked Bartholomew I, he called him “my brother Andrew.”
· He has simplified his coat of arms, keeping the miter rather than tiara (as Benedict also did) but removing the pallium from it.
· He is wearing a second-hand pallium.
· He has chosen a simple ring, re-using a ring once made for Paul VI’s secretary.
· Pope Benedict recently began wearing a fanon under the pallium for big feasts, but Francis did not wear it as the inauguration Mass.
· He undid Pope Benedict’s decision that all the cardinals would come up to pay obedience to the Pope at his inauguration, and decided that six representatives would be enough.
· Rather than being seated while they came up to pay him obedience, he stood and greeted them informally.
· Contrary to protocol, he has given a phone call to the Jesuit superior general, the people holding a prayer vigil outside the Buenos Aires cathedral, and the guy in Argentina who sold him his daily paper (to cancel his delivery).
· When he met the Jesuit general, he apologized for not keeping protocol and insisted on being treated like any other Jesuit with the “tu” informal address, rather than “Your Holiness” or “Holy Father.”
· He is not celebrating Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord’s Supper in St. Peter’s Basilica (he hasn’t yet taken possession of his cathedral, John Lateran), but in a juvenile prison.
· He celebrated an unannounced Mass at St. Martha’s with hotel workers, Vatican gardeners, and people who clean St. Peter’s square. He showed up before Mass and sat in the back row to pray a bit.
· In his official photograph, he signs his name simply “Franciscus” without “PP” (“pontifex pontificum”) used by previous popes.
Not sure about Navy SEALS, I am thinking more like Royal Marines or U.S. Marines. I think they appear so young because of their fair complexion. My understanding is hat they re all part of the Swiss Army and are hand picked for the duty.
I’m obviously an outsider but that would unnerve me, seeing as how your Pope Francis appears to have become something of a polarizing figure fairly quickly. I don’t grasp all the uproar, the foot washing is a very appropriate, humbling gesture for a Christian in position of authority to me, so I approve of it. Then, there’s the whole Ann Barnhardt thing, I saw that thread, Catholics calling him satan for not genuflecting.
How much of this is real and how much is media hype about him being polarizing?
I have not seen the thread about Ann Barnhardt or the not genuflecting so I real can't comment.
HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT UNITAS FRATRUM (1457-1722) The Bohemian Brethren are a link in a chain of sects beginning with Wyclif (1324-84) and coming down to the present day. The ideas of the Englishman found favour with Hus, and Bohemia proved a better soil for their growth than England. Both Wyclif and Hus were moved by a sincere desire to reform the Church of their times; both failed and, without intending it, became the fathers of new heretical bodies - the Lollards and the Hussites. The former were persecuted out of existence in England by Catholic rulers; the latter prospered in Bohemia, thanks to royal and national support. The burning of John Hus at the stake for his stubborn adherence to the condemed doctrines of Wyclif (at Constance, 6 July, 1415) was considered an insult to the faith of the Bohemian nation, which, since its first conversion to Christianity, had never swerved from the truth. The University of Prague came boldly forward to vindicate the man and his doctrines; the party which hitherto had worked at reforming the Church from within now rejected the Church's authority and became the Hussite sect...
A reasonable reply. Thank you.
I did find one thread about Traditionalists and the new Pope. It seems that some is just hype from the media trying to stir trouble, and there are some Radical Traditionalists that are not happy with him. I think this number is very small and I am certain that a certain percentage would be unhappy even if he brought back full scale inquisitions and had the entire Mass said in Latin.
You wrote:
“I’m curious, what is the source contradicting Moravians’ own claim of having origins in the Orthodox?”
First, produce an actual claim from the Moravians that they were never Catholic but were instead Eastern Orthodox. Until you do that I have no reason to believe you can validly claim that they claim that.
“The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn’t contradict them as you have:”
I think you need to read the sources you quote more closely:
“HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT UNITAS FRATRUM (1457-1722)...”
Thus, we see already that the old Catholic Encyclopedia is clearly referencing a group that could only be Catholic if it started in Bohemia in 1457.
“The Bohemian Brethren are a link in a chain of sects beginning with Wyclif (1324-84) and coming down to the present day.”
Wyclif - a Catholic who embraced heresy. Not Eastern Orthodoxy.
“The ideas of the Englishman found favour with Hus, and Bohemia proved a better soil for their growth than England.”
Hus - a Catholic who embraced heresy. Not Eastern Orthodoxy.
Produce a source from the Moravians themselves, preferably from an official Moravian source.
There was a pretty wild one here on FR, there actually were calls for a return to the Inquisition. Maybe it was deleted.
The movement that was to become the Moravian Church was started by Jan Hus (English: John Huss) in the late 14th century. Hus objected to some of the practices of the Roman Catholic Church and wanted to return the church in Bohemia and Moravia to what were the practices in these territories when it had been Eastern Orthodox: liturgy in the language of the people (i.e. Czech), having lay people receive communion in both kinds (bread and wine - that is, in Latin, communio sub utraque specie), married priests, and eliminating indulgences and the idea of Purgatory. Evidence of their roots in Eastern Orthodoxy can be seen today in their form of the Nicene Creed, which like Orthodox Churches, does not include the filioque clause. In rejecting indulgences, Jan Hus can be said to have adopted a doctrine of justification by grace through faith alone; in doing so, the Moravians arguably became the first Protestant church.[2][3]
Pope Francis is a Jesuit. For better or worse, Jesuits operate in a different mode from what is common. I pray that God will grant him the grace to accomplish whatever good he is meant to accomplish. It is too early to get an idea of what is actually going to go on in terms of curial reform.
Ed Peter’s post on fathers made a great deal of sense. http://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/popes-like-dads-dont-have-a-choice-in-the-matter/
In the end, God is in control.
I’m likin’ this guy more every day! :o)
Love the tagline!
Why? They make excellent theatre. They draw attention away from the other Swiss Guards ... the ones in black business suits, with wires in their ears and MP-5s tucked away unseen but convenient.
amen, may the 1000 year schism be ended.
well, the uniform is for decorative/historical purposes — just like the beefeaters at the tower or the bearskin caps at Buck house. The Swiss guard who protect the pope directly wear clothes like the secret service
well, their ancestors were Catholic...
Don’t encourage her! She needs the rank (and the salary) to support her car and her dog!
Thanks for the link Peter’s site. He offers a good defense. FWIU, the foot washing rite is optional. More than 25 years ago, the priest at my parish included women when washing feet. It’s much ado about nothing.
Their ancestors were Eastern Orthodox.
you wrote:
“I’ll refer you back to the initial link I provided, amply sourced, with the key excerpt being as follows:”
It is not “amply” sourced. It is, in fact, not sourced at all. The two footnotes are about Hus not any Eastern Orthodox connection. That’s exactly why the superscript numbers only come at the end of the sentence and NOT after the comment about supposed Eastern Orthodox origins. Also, please not that both titles referenced in footnotes 2 and 3 lack page numbers which shows us that no specific point is being made except a general reference to the Protestant nature of the sect in question - as is amply demonstrated in the titles and description of the two books referenced.
In other words, you got nothing!
Now, again, I ask you to provide me with a source, preferably an official source from the Moravians, which gives evidence, actual evidence rather than a claim of evidence, that the Moravian Church, a 15th century heretical sect which broke away from the Catholic Church was actually Eastern Orthodox in origins. Can you do it or not?
“Their ancestors were Eastern Orthodox.”
No, they were not. Even in the days of Sts. Cyril and Methodius they were Catholic because Cyril and Methodius were Catholic. They received approval from the pope to have the liturgy in the native language, for instance. Cyril died in Rome as a monk.
I’ve got family obligations Vlad no time to spar at present. The Inquisition will have to wait, lol.
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