Pope: Mary is always in a hurry to help us (first pastoral visit to a diocese in Rome)

(Vatican Radio) Early on Sunday the feast of the Holy Trinity Pope Francis made his first Pastoral visit to a Diocese in Rome. The Parish of Saint Elisabeth and Zechariah gave the Pope a rapturous welcome as he arrived by helicopter to celebrate Mass and administer the Sacrament of Holy Communion to 16 children.
The Pope addressing the children and the congregation present underlined the importance of praying to the Madonna. Mary, the Holy Father said is always in a hurry to help us, teaching us to understand God. She was there, the Pope added, to help her cousin Elizabeth when she was expecting her baby and she is always there when we need her.
The Holy Father also focused on the theme of the Holy Trinity during his Homily telling the parishioners present that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. The Father, the Pope explained is the principle figure, he created everything, he created us. Jesus, meanwhile, said Pope Francis is the saviour. He came down to earth to give his life for us. Lastly, observing the importance of the Holy Spirit, the Pope said, he loves us.
The Christian life the Pope continued means talking to this Trinity. The Holy Francis also said it is the he son who walks with us. The Holy Father described how Jesus gives us the strength to carry on our journey even in difficult times; he is never far our side.
After greeting the many parishioners following Mass, the Pope returned to the Vatican by helicopter for the recitation of the Sunday Angelus.

“The true measure of a Christian will be their testimony regarding the object of their love, Jesus and all that accompanies Him.”

Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I’m not sure how that fits with these:

Hail, You Star of Ocean

Hail, you Star of Ocean!
Portal of the sky,
Ever Virgin Mother,
Of the Lord most high.

O! by Gabriel’s Ave,
Uttered long ago,
Eva’s name reversing,
Establish peace below.

Break the captive’s fetters;
Light on blindness pour;
All our ills expelling,
Ev’ry bliss implore.

Show yourself a mother;
Offer him our sighs,
Who for us Incarnate
Did not you despise.

Virgin of all virgins!
To your shelter take us;
Gentlest of the gentle!
Chaste and gentle make us.

Still as on we journey,
Help our weak endeavor,
Till with you and Jesus
We rejoice forever.

Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be.

—

Holy Mary,
pray for us.
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of the Church,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Saviour,
Mother of mercy,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honour,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower if ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comfort of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Virgins,
Queen of all Saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of the most holy Rosary,
Queen of families,
Queen of peace.

http://www.vatican.va/special/rosary/documents/litanie-lauretane_en.html

If our love for our mother and father should seem like hate compared to our love for Christ, I’m not sure where you can fit a created being into the formula.

I’ll stick with Jesus Christ alone, thank you very much, and it doesn’t bother me if some people think me “evil” for rebuking His rivals. After all, our God is a jealous God too.

Nevertheless Catholics worship Mary. Deny all you want.

OK, I'll deny it all I want, because it isn't true. I don't worship Mary; no Catholic I know worships Mary; the Church no where teaches Catholics to worship Mary and, in fact, is clear in it's teachings that we are to worship God alone. The Catechism of the Catholic Church in it's section on the 1st Commandment (CCC 2085) quotes St. Justin Martyr where he says, "There will never be another God, Trypho, and there has been no other since the world began . . . than he who made and ordered the universe. We do not think that our God is different from yours. He is the same who brought your fathers out of Egypt by his powerful hand and his outstretched arm. We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none." (St. Justin, Dial. cum Tryphone Judaeo 11,1:PG 6,497)

I was raised a Catholic.

Being an ex-Catholic does not qualify anyone as an authority on Church teaching. Ex-Catholics are such because they misunderstood the Faith, not because they knew the Faith. If you see a Catholic who you presume is worshiping Mary, either you are wrong and are misreading their heart, or (possibly) you are right and you are looking at a Catholic who is ignorant of Church teaching.

Catholics will say whatever it takes to get Christians to not question their unbiblical practices. I used to do the same thing.

If you were uneducated in your Catholic Faith to the point you had to resort to deception and denial to defend it, that says more about you than it does about Catholic teaching and practice.

Oh my goodness, GPH, here's something you overlooked. Please redouble your energy and expose this:

In a Catholic Solemn High Mass, the deacons incense the priests, each other, the altar, the Gospel book, and everyone in the congregation. You would get incensed if you there (in both senses, no doubt) and I think this shocking fact ought to be made more generally known.

Even more flabbergasting: Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox do at least 10 times more incensing, since they incense everybody and everything at just about EACH AND EVERY LITURGY (that would be, on a daily basis) and that includes the icons on the walls.

Not only that, but they chant, chant, chant. So if you were there, you'd have a better-than-even chance to be both incensed and enchanted.

Some rare but specific types of people start screaming when they are approached with a candle, holy water, or, worst of all, a crucifix.

On second thought, maybe you'd better keep away. Wouldn't want there to be any hysteria.

Please continue reporting from a safe distance. I would sincerely appreciate more lyrics from additional Marian hymns. Don't forget the ones that use the word "Theotokos," they're even better, or, from your point of view, perhaps thrillingly worse.

Maybe you could include some Helen Steiner Rice poetry from selected Mother's Day cards, for the sake of comparing and contrasting sacred/secular idolatrous hyperbole in rhyme, scansion and sentiments.

Thank you.

“OK, I’ll deny it all I want, because it isn’t true. I don’t worship Mary”

Every time you claim that Mary is sinless, or the all-holy ever virgin, who can hear your repetitious prayers and praises AND answer them, you essentially make Mary to be another God whom you worship. We never claimed that Catholics are themselves aware of it. We claim that your practices give so much devotion to a flawed human being, and ascribe to her so much power, that in effect you both worship and serve her, a creation, instead of the creator who demands ALL your worship.

Exo 34:13-14 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: (14) For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

The most righteous thing a Catholic can do is to cut down the altars and the groves an the sacred images of all their Saints, and replace them with a place dedicated to prayer to God alone. This is the biblical example, and the only example worth imitating.

“We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none.” (St. Justin, Dial. cum Tryphone Judaeo 11,1:PG 6,497)”

“Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.” (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914)

This is literally taking THIS scripture:

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And inserting Mary’s name right into it!

CCC 966, “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.” You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.”

The Queen over all things, who delivers the soul from death with the power of her prayers, and you say you do not hope on Mary? But, oh, you say, she’s not GOD, she’s just the all-holy ever virgin who is Queen over all things!

Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

The “ALL-HOLY EVER VIRGIN” compared to these scriptures falls to pieces, don’t you think?

“Not according to Luther, Zwingli and Calvin — are you surprised? Read on!”

Keep in mind I’m not a Catholic, so the beliefs of others, from my perspective, must stand corrected by the scripture. But, for the record, Luther started off with delusions of Mary, but finished with something quite different.

Luther on the Immaculate conception:

“Mother Mary, like us, was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her, sanctified and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood, but not with sinful flesh and blood. The Holy Spirit permitted the Virgin Mary to remain a true, natural human being of flesh and blood, just as we. However, he warded off sin from her flesh and blood so that she became the mother of a pure child, not poisoned by sin as we are…For in that moment when she conceived, she was a holy mother filled with the Holy Spirit and her fruit is a holy pure fruit, at once God and truly man, in one person.” (Martin Luther, Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, ed. John Nicholas Lenker. Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1996, p. 291.)

Luther downplaying the importance of Mary’s perpetual virginity:

“Scripture does not quibble or speak about the virginity of Mary after the birth of Christ, a matter about which the hypocrites are greatly concerned, as if it were something of the utmost importance on which our whole salvation depended. Actually, we should be satisfied simply to hold that she remained a virgin after the birth of Christ because Scripture does not state or indicate that she later lost her virginity... But the Scripture stops with this, that she was a virgin before and at the birth of Christ; for up to this point God had need of her virginity in order to give us the promised blessed seed without sin.” (Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, 45: 205-206.)

Luther condemning the extolling of Mary’s perpetual virginity instead of Christ:

“Now just take a look at the perverse lauders of the mother of God. If you ask them why they hold so strongly to the virginity of Mary, they truly could not say. These stupid idolators do nothing more than to glorify only the mother of God; they extol her for her virginity and practically make a false deity of her. But Scripture does not praise this virginity at all for the sake of the mother; neither was she saved on account of her virginity. Indeed, cursed be this and every other virginity if it exists for its own sake, and accomplishes nothing better than its own profit and praise.

The Spirit extols this virginity, however, because it was needful for the conceiving and bearing of this blessed fruit. Because of the corruption of our flesh, such blessed fruit could not come, except through a virgin. Thus this tender virginity existed in the service of others to the glory of God, not to its own glory” (Ibid., 45:204).

Luther on prayer to the saints in 1522 (he has other quotes, before this, which contradict his later ideas):

“I beseech in Christ that your preachers forbear entering upon questions concerning the saints in heaven and the deceased, and I ask you to turn the attention of people away from these matters in view of the fact…that they are neither profitable nor necessary for salvation. This is also reason why God decided not to let us know anything about His dealings with the deceased. Surely he is not committing a sin who does not call upon any saint but only clings firmly to the one mediator, Jesus Christ.” (Martin Luther, “Letter to Erfurt evangelists July 10, 1522,” What Luther Says, Vol. 1, 1253.)

Luther accuses the RCC of Saint worship:

“No one can deny that by such saint worship we have now come to the point where we have actually made utter idols of the Mother of God and the saints, and that because of the service we have rendered and the works we have performed in their honor we have sought comfort more with them than with Christ Himself. Thereby faith in Christ has been destroyed.” (Martin Luther, D.Martin Luthers Werke: Kritische Gesamtausgabe, Abteilung Werke 11:415 quoted in MartinLuther, What Luther Says, Vol. III, ed. Ewald Martin Plass (St Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959), 1254.)

Luther redefines the Hail Mary, according to James Swan:

“But what does Luther mean by “through Mary”? Luther does not mean, “by praying to her,” but rather by thanking God for creating such a noble, blessed, person. The words of the Hail Mary are “neither a prayer nor an invocation” and “are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor” to God.[55] The man who only a few years earlier called upon her, concluded that “those who bless her with many rosaries and constantly mouth the Hail Mary… speak evil against Christ’s word and faith in the worst way.”[56] Their prayers to her are an evil deed against both her and her son. With this popular prayer, Luther reinterpreted it for his readers, again shifting the emphasis of praise to Mary to veneration of God alone.”

http://tquid.sharpens.org/luther_mary1.htm#I

You and I both are in strong agreement with the following (I have tweaked it somewhat, but I will explain why):

"At no time have I ever believed that the Christians in heaven have the divine attributes of God, and can hear [us] and understand [us] the world over, ~~billions~~ an infinite number at a time, thus making them equal with God in power and knowledge."

True - and well said.

I changed "billions" to "an infinite number," because the number you gave --- billions --- is well within human capacity on this earth even now. Digital media can efficiently handle billionfold communications in a flash. As for understanding and responding: well, computers don't quite "understand" in a human sense, but they do analyze, transmit, interpret, and respond. They are our servants, these cyber-machines, and through fiberoptics, satellite relay, and nanotechnology, they (and thus we) can do billionfold hearing (reception and analysis) and response even now.

Understand that the difference between listening to one person, and listening to a billion, is quantitative, not qualitative. If we can process billions of messages at once now, in 25 years --- if the Lord tarries --- we will be able to do trillions. And maybe some humans, the information elite, will have cybernetic interfaces in their brains by then. Will that make the information elite all divine? Ha. Not even close.

The divine power is infinite, not merely numeric. Just as infinite power is infinitely greater than onefold or twofold, it is likewise infinitely greater than a billionfold.

In other words, "a billion", even a billion to the billionth power, is still infinitely smaller than what exists within God's power.

Do you honestly think that a communications capacity that is even now commonplace--- to "hear" and "respond to" a chugga-bugga-zillion communications at a time --- seriously rivals Almighty God?

Do you understand that when one is in heaven with God, one is outside of time and space? Time and space no longer have any limiting power over the angels and the saints who are in the presence of God.

So if Mary, or the Martyr Stephen, or St. Michael the Archangel, can hear many people at once, it would not surprise me in the least. Even that pathetic wizened beaten dud, the fallen spirit Satan, can probably do that. And all the citizens of Heaven are greater than Satan.

I don't hold your mischaracterizations against you. What I think you were getting at --- and Catholics would agree with you on this --- is that, compared to the eternal, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God, all creatures -- Angels and Archangels, Pariarchs, Prophets, Mary, Peter, Paul, Andrew, James, John, Aquila, Priscilla, Tabitha, Magalene, Barnabas, saints in heaven and saints on earth, internet wizards, computer sorcerers, cybernetic wankers and all --- are on a radically lower plane. Smaller than microbes by comparison.

Not equal to God. Not nearing parity. Not even close.

“Digital media can efficiently handle billionfold communications in a flash.”

Human beings are not cell phones or computers. In order to process an “infinite” amount of data, to personally hear the prayers of every person praying to them, to judge the matter and make a decision to answer it or not, they would need the divine attributes of omnipresence and omniscience. You are also stuck in the strange situation of depending on the righteousness of a created being, rather than the righteousness imputed by faith in Jesus Christ, the latter of which makes the believer very much both a King and a Priest in the sight of God (Rev 5).

“Do you understand that when one is in heaven with God, one is outside of time and space? Time and space no longer have any limiting power over the angels and the saints who are in the presence of God.”

Even if they are in infinite heaven, they’re still, by your own admission, dealing with an infinite amount of data. Furthermore, human beings praying today are not in heaven. They are on Earth, and Mary is said to be hearing, personally, the prayers and devotions of human beings here and now, manifesting herself on pieces of toast or in statues that blink or cry blood. Unless you have a heavenly UPS system delivering the prayers into eternity, which, of course, isn’t what the RCC teaches.

“So if Mary, or the Martyr Stephen, or St. Michael the Archangel, can hear many people at once, it would not surprise me in the least. Even that pathetic wizened beaten dud, the fallen spirit Satan, can probably do that. And all the citizens of Heaven are greater than Satan.”

There’s only one God, and one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus.

"Human beings are not cell phones or computers."

True. But we use them to transmit, store, analyze, and respond to information; in other words, to communicate. They give human beings capacities which are strictly natural, finite, but beyond the physiological.

"In order to process an “infinite” amount of data...they would need the divine attributes of omnipresence and omniscience. "

True. That is why the word "infinite" makes your statement correct; but not the word "billions." Humans can receive, analyze, and respond to "billions" of communications already.

"You are also stuck in the strange situation of depending on the righteousness of a created being, rather than the righteousness imputed by faith in Jesus Christ, the latter of which makes the believer very much both a King and a Priest in the sight of God (Rev 5)."

Not true. I depend on the righteousness of no created being. I depend on the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Even if they are in infinite heaven, they’re still, by your own admission, dealing with an infinite amount of data. "

Not true. I made no such "admission". You missed the main point. They are NOT dealing with an infinite amount of data. Infinite does not equal "dozens," or "lots," or "a really, really, big number" or "billions." Infinity is infinitely greater than any number.

Humans have the theoretical capacity, even in the natural plane,to deal with anything that is numerical. Infinity is not numerical.

"Mary is said to be hearing, personally, the prayers and devotions of human beings here and now...Unless you have a heavenly UPS system delivering the prayers into eternity, which, of course, isn’t what the RCC teaches."

I have mercifully left out the nonsense about the toast. What I did assert, is that even if Mary can hear 5 or 5x10^1,000,000 prayers, she is still operating in a finite capacity. Even cyberscience could give a mere, finite, natural person such a capacity. It is not a capacity which (even as a natural phenomenon) would be restricted to God.

Mary's capacities are finite, but of course not technological. They go beyond technological to preternatural, that is, enhanced not by mastery of energy and materials, but by God's gracious gift. Super-communicativity is something God could grant to any person in heaven, angelic or human.

For instance, the Book of Revelation tells us ( Revelation 5:8, and Revelation 8:3-4) that the angels offer to God bowls of incense "with the prayers of all God's people." This is an image of super-communicativity. The angels are offering our prayers. Our prayers --- billions --- are going through them!

"There’s only one God, and one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus."

True. And an emphatic AMEN!

I'm glad we can agree.

“True. But we use them to transmit, store, analyze, and respond to information; in other words, to communicate.”

There is no heavenly cell phone system which enables human beings to personally hear and understand every prayer in the world. There is no digital software made by a heavenly Bill Gates that gives to a human being the comprehension and power to understand every prayer directed to them on the planet. It is, very simply, the height of superstition and idolatry that causes people to think that a human spirit can be in more than one place at one time.

“Not true. I depend on the righteousness of no created being. I depend on the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Too true. To pray to any other person, even for the purpose of them relaying the message to God, is essentially to say that you need their personal righteousness to give power to your prayer, that you need someone else to mediate on your behalf to Christ, instead of Christ Himself who imputes upon you His righteousness in the first place, the same Christ who said we ought to pray in His name to the Father, and never said to pray in the name of Mary.

“Not true. I made no such “admission”. You missed the main point. They are NOT dealing with an infinite amount of data.”

Then we’re back to billions, every day, that will go on till the crack of doom, especially since you Catholics are so fond of repetitious prayers.

“What I did assert, is that even if Mary can hear 5 or 5x101,000,000 prayers, she is still operating in a finite capacity. Even cyberscience could give a mere, finite, natural person such a capacity. It is not a capacity which (even as a natural phenomenon) would be restricted to God.”

There is no human being in the world who can process 5x101,000,000 prayers everyday. To claim that there is one who can, is to make them God.

“For instance, the Book of Revelation tells us ( Revelation 5:8, and Revelation 8:3-4) that the angels offer to God bowls of incense “with the prayers of all God’s people.””

Those prayers are offered to God directly, not to Mary or anyone else. Nor are they literally the prayers of the Saints, as prayers are often symbolized in the scriptures as incense, and they were offered in the Temple service in Jerusalem while the Jews prayed (Psalm 141:2, Luke 1:9-10). The Jews often spoke of something as being what it symbolized. The passover, for example, is called the Lord’s Passover, even though it only represented the passover.

Furthermore, say the incense does not just symbolize prayer, but is literally the prayers transubstantiated into incense. One would then presume that Mary goes up to the incense before the throne of God and breaths it up, thus retransforming the prayers from incense back to information, absorbing the prayers of “all God’s people” through this method. In this case, she would still need the mental faculties to understand all the prayers in the world, in all the various languages, and to know personally the person who gave each and every prayer.

Mind you, the RCC does not teach that the prayers are delivered to her, but rather that she hears them personally, as one who is present with the individual.

Here are a bunch of Papists praising Mary for the smell of Roses sensed during their adoration of their idol. Supposedly, it is evidence of her presence:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=22577

“True. And an emphatic AMEN!”

Then you’ve renounced prayer to the saints, since it makes of them gods and mediators in heaven?

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