Posted on 06/25/2013 3:08:30 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
“Calvinism is but an extension of the pagan teachings Augustine brought into the church.”
It’s absurd to turn to something other than scripture to defend one’s theological views, as it is the scripture which is the end all and the be all for all doctrine. However, it cannot be reasonably concluded that the early Christian Saints, as you called them, didn’t believe in predestination or held to your views of Free-Will. Quoting one or two people, one of which left to the Montanists, cannot make this the universal position of Christianity. Until Pelagius, who denied Original Sin and affirmed things as you do, there was no real need to defend it, and therefore no real need to guard against it. But by your logic we would also have to throw out the Trinity, since no one discussed it, though it is clearly in the scripture upon analysis. One can find in the works of Tertullian, or many others, favorable quotations that can be applied to both positions. And, certainly, these same people you quote held many errors, which we cannot attribute to having been carried on to them from the Apostles. Some of these early Christians were better than others, though, for example, Ignatius certainly did not speak like a Pelagian!
Ignatius of Antioch (1st Century)
“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Ephesians, Ch. 0)
“Seeing, then, all things have an end, these two things are simultaneously set before us— death and life; and every one shall go unto his own place. For as there are two kinds of coins, the one of God, the other of the world, and each of these has its special character stamped upon it, [so is it also here.] The unbelieving are of this world; but the believing have, in love, the character of God the Father by Jesus Christ, by whom, if we are not in readiness to die into His passion, His life is not in us.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, Ch. 5)
“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans. Ch. 0)
“I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that you also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Ch. 4)
“Flee, therefore, those evil offshoots [of Satan], which produce death-bearing fruit, whereof if any one tastes, he instantly dies. For these men are not the planting of the Father. For if they were, they would appear as branches of the cross, and their fruit would be incorruptible.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, Ch. 11)
And just an FYI, the “pagan” Augustine was originally of your mind, though he changed it later.
“Chapter 7 [III.]— Augustine Confesses that He Had Formerly Been in Error Concerning the Grace of God.
“It was not thus that that pious and humble teacher thought— I speak of the most blessed Cyprian— when he said that we must boast in nothing, since nothing is our own. And in order to show this, he appealed to the apostle as a witness, where he said, For what have you that you have not received? And if you have received it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? 1 Corinthians 4:7 And it was chiefly by this testimony that I myself also was convinced when I was in a similar error, thinking that faith whereby we believe in God is not God’s gift, but that it is in us from ourselves, and that by it we obtain the gifts of God, whereby we may live temperately and righteously and piously in this world. For I did not think that faith was preceded by God’s grace, so that by its means would be given to us what we might profitably ask, except that we could not believe if the proclamation of the truth did not precede; but that we should consent when the gospel was preached to us I thought was our own doing, and came to us from ourselves. And this my error is sufficiently indicated in some small works of mine written before my episcopate.”
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15121.htm
So, if Augustine is a Pagan and comes up with Pagan ideas, were his original ideas less Pagan than his later opinions?
“Pagan concepts such as original sin, biblical predestination and election.”
We’ve gone over predestination, which beyond your appealing to non-biblical sources to refute, and your assertions that they are refuted, stand generally unmolested. But on original sin, how can you deny this when the scripture tells us that we are by nature the children of wrath, who served the desires of the flesh and of the mind?
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
“To embrace original sin you, must negate man’s free will and their ability to obey God on their own.”
If it is “on their own,” without even the aid of grace to open up their hearts, your views aren’t even Arminian, but totally Pelagian!
“Their souls/spirits existed before they were placed in flesh body at conception.”
I would be careful with this kind of conclusion, dear Brother, as it is essentially the Mormon position. It is not necessary to suppose that Jacob and Esau existed as spirits before they were placed on Earth just because the election of God took place before they had done “good or evil.” To take your position, it would suggest that Jacob must have done something right in the pre-existence, which warranted God having chosen him. But the scripture teaches that it is not based on our merits at all, and therefore this cannot be the case:
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
We are also, by nature, designed to be alive as a union between a physical body and a soul. To be separate from the body originally, before being placed into the body, would say that our natural condition is to be what we call death. Yet, as we see in Revelation, our ultimate fate is to be a part of the 1st resurrection, regaining our physical bodies, though in a glorified state incapable of sinning, in the same way we are incapable to stop sinning right now.
“As for my disdain for Calvin’s teachings, I will reserve any more comment on the man personally for God himself. For when a man’s teachings lead millions astray from the truth, it is God he must eventually answer to. By now I am sure he has.”
One last thing. If Calvin led “millions astray from the truth,” then the entire Reformation was a “leading astray” of millions from the “truth” of Catholicism, as it was Luther, the Augustinian monk, who declared the bondage of the will and waged war against man’s Free-Will. And his legacy was carried on by all the reformers thereafter. If what you say is true, then it is the Roman Catholic view which is the truth, as it is they who always championed the freedom of the will. After all, the doctrines of grace utterly abolish Catholicism and its rites.
I’m sure the Catholics would be happy with your assertions, but I’m willing to bet that you wouldn’t.
Peter, (I do not know about the Mormons), says there are three different heaven/earth worlds/ages. IIPeter 3. And Peter writes that the heaven/earth world/age that WAS this earth was destroyed by water... check out what Genesis 1:2 says, why there is a flood described in that verse.
Yet not one WORD through the whole of the Bible is the creation/formation of each and every soul/spirit intellect described. But when the Adam was formed he was not alive until the breath of life which means soul was breathed into his nostrils.
Christ said that the first requirement to see the kingdom of God is to be born from above. There is no such thing as predestination of something that did not already exist. This flesh body is temporal and when it returns to the dust from which it came the soul/spirit intellect returns to the Maker that sent it.
Paul says at the last trump, the 7th trump all will be changed. This flesh age has a time stamp on it and once the last soul/spirit willing to take this flesh journey is conceived then will come the time for that harvest by Christ.
It is God's plan placed in motion when the devil rebelled and drew a third of God children to him. God not did just hate Esau without cause, and God had Paul write Esau was hated before he was ever born. So how did Esau live his flesh journey? Obviously the same pattern he set in that age that WAS.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; ...... Obviously God knew his souls at least the majority would be born of woman through this flesh age, yet God does not reference flesh bodies, He says souls. There is a difference in the two bodies and when Christ returns all flesh will be changed.
First, we must deal with scripture such as "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." We must deal with the extent of the atonement, "not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." "For God loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."
Next, a biblical position must deal with "by grace we're saved through faith, and that not of ourselves. It (faith) is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." It must deal with Lydia for "God opened her heart" to believe. And as you have pointed out, scripture says that Jacob was elected before birth and Esau was not.
So, a biblical position must deal with both God's sovereign choice and God's making faith available to all. It must not make God into some kind of lawyer who withholds things via the fine print, and it must not make God into some kind of punching bag who reels about not knowing what's going on.
Revelation 22: "17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. "
Revelation 17: "The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished "
Romans 10: 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."
First, we must deal with scripture such as "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." We must deal with the extent of the atonement, "not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." "For God loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."
Next, a biblical position must deal with "by grace we're saved through faith, and that not of ourselves. It (faith) is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." It must deal with Lydia for "God opened her heart" to believe. And as you have pointed out, scripture says that Jacob was elected before birth and Esau was not.
So, a biblical position must deal with both God's sovereign choice and God's making faith available to all. It must not make God into some kind of lawyer who withholds things via the fine print, and it must not make God into some kind of punching bag who reels about not knowing what's going on.
Revelation 22: "17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. "
Revelation 17: "The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished "
Romans 10: 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."
I asked four questions. You didn’t answer any of them.
I was not ignoring your questions on purpose. I was called to do other things. I was prepared to answer them after my other responses.
As of now, I am busy at work. Hopefully I will get to them this evening after I return from church.
“We must deal with the extent of the atonement, “not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
1Jn 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This scripture is a word of encouragement to believers that they have an advocate for them to the Father, who can do so since He is the righteous “propitiation” for the sins of believers, the one who washes away their sin with His blood.
If we read this as you do, we would understand the “us” and the “world” as referring to every individual, which means that even the reprobate have had their sins “atoned,” or “propitiated” per the scripture, even though they will die not only for the sin of unbelief, but for all their other sins too, even though Christ presumably atoned for all their sins on the cross, for he “IS’ the propitiation, and not just possibly a propitiation or available to be a propitiation. Unless Christ “is” the propitiation for the believers (”us”), then this passage of scripture is no encouragement, but rather something terrifying to behold, since even with Christ the High Priest atoning with His death and advocating to the Father on the behalf of the world, many He died for and advocated for are still finding themselves in hell.
This is why Spurgeon, in this sermon, makes the correction that we can say that atonement applies only to “the comers,” but not to all of humanity, which your reading directly leads to. If not, then we must believe in an atonement and an advocacy that is not effectual, or does not wash away every sin.
Notice that this scripture begins with “my little children,” or more specifically, to the Jewish converts to Christianity. The epistle itself begins by speaking to those who had “seen” and heard and “touched” for themselves the “Word of Life,” which can only mean Jesus Christ Himself as opposed to merely the Gospel message. We can conclude from this that the audience is Jewish. To further prove the point, John is also called an Apostle to the Jews in Galatians 2:9, making it ever more likely that we must understand this epistle in the Jewish context.
Gill observes that the Jews commonly referred to the Gentiles as “the world”:
“Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles “the world”; and “the whole world”; and “the nations of the world” (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word “world” is so used in Scripture; see Joh_3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that “there is no propitiation for them” (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say (n), “it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, “the whole world” went after him;’’ which could only design the people in the temple.”
So the “world” then is in reference to the Gentiles in a limited sense, specifically for all the children of God dispersed across the world, and not individually to every human being, whether they are reprobate or elect, which could make Christ the propitiation of the unrepentant and the damned in hell, all of whom would probably be surprised to hear that Christ paid the penalty for the sins they are burning for.
This is the same point (that John is speaking only of the elect across the world) that John makes in the 11th chapter of his Gospel:
Joh_11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Notice how close the language is as well. In 1 John 2:2, “not for ours only,” and in John 11:52 “and not for that nation only.” John, therefore, is speaking to the children of God “my little children,” and of these same children ‘scattered abroad,” refuting the Jewish idea that the Messiah came only for the Jews.
Joh_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
To beat the point home totally, here Christ prays to those “given to Him” (the body of Christ) out of the world, and not every individual in the world:
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
If Christ is the advocate of the entire world, there should be no distinction between those “given” and “the world” in its totality.
This same reply can also be applied to your other verse where the word “world” appears, understood in a general sense to save men from every tongue and nation, but not that He offers universal atonement even to those outside of Christianity.
“First, we must deal with scripture such as “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
If you read the sermon, the fact that “whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” is not something even Spurgeon denies, even when he condemns the idea of free-will. The elect believe it, and the reprobate reject it unto their condemnation. Why God does not make all the reprobate into the elect is His prerogative:
Rom 9:18-21 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
While it is impossible for mankind to “seek after God” or understand God (per Romans 3) without the quickening of the Holy Spirit, this does not mean that those who reject Christ’s offer are not guilty for it. Examine this explanation of the will by Calvin:
Important Distinctions to Understand:
The Choices of Man - Voluntary or Coerced by John Calvin
“There are four expressions regarding the will which differ from one another “namely that the will is 1) free, 2) bound, 3) self-determined, or 4) coerced. People generally understand a free will to be one which has in its power to choose good or evil …[But] There can be no such thing as a coerced will, since the two ideas are contradictory. But our responsibility as teachers is to say what it means, so that it may be understood what coercion is. Therefore we describe [as coerced] the will which does not incline this way or that of its own accord or by an internal movement of decision, but is forcibly driven by an external impulse. We say that it is self-determined when of itself it directs itself in the direction in which it is led, when it is not taken by force or dragged unwillingly. A bound will, finally, is one which because of its corruptness is held captive under the authority of its evil desires, so that it can choose nothing but evil, even if it does so of its own accord and gladly, without being driven by any external impulse.
“According to these definitions we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man’s innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.” (John Calvin, BLW pp 69, 70)
You might ask, why does Christ give a general call to all, when salvation is only secured for some? Even though election takes place in eternity, election is only the plan of God to achieve something that will occur in time. He has ordained that the elect should come to Him according to means, such as the preaching of the Word of God, through enlightenment by the Holy Spirit; and these men grow throughout their life by the sanctification of the heart and mind by the Holy Spirit in study of the scriptures. It is, in a way, a cooperation between God and man, but not in the sense that any of the elect can ever fall away if they fail to cooperate:
Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Or that they came to Christ of their own flesh and blood:
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
But rather in the sense that our Father wants us to know and understand the necessity for our election, the glory of His mercy, and the value of the gift He has given to us, though we deserved it not. The reprobate, also, are lessons for us, to show us our wretched nature, and as an illustrated lesson of the horrors of sin and the justice of God in punishing that sin.
Rom 9:22-24 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
“So, a biblical position must deal with both God’s sovereign choice and God’s making faith available to all.”
But you asserted that faith is itself the gift of God “not of ourselves,” in your quotation from Ephesians. So if faith is given to all, why do not all believe? And why is it that the Jews in John 6 are not said to have been given the gift of faith, but were rather not given it by God at all to begin with?
” It would be a good faith effort on the part of a believer to account for all scripture and not just some scripture or even most scripture.”
It is not enough merely to quote random scriptures and then tell us that you are “accounting for them all” in good faith. To account for them is to do as I have done, which is to explain how the scripture does not actually contradict itself, but gives one coherent message. Your responses do not “account for the scripture,” it merely asserts that they contradict each other, and that you do not know how they fit together.
And with others.
If we read this as you do, we would understand the “us” and the “world” as referring to every individual, which means that even the reprobate have had their sins “atoned,” or “propitiated” per the scripture, even though they will die not only for the sin of unbelief, but for all their other sins too, even though Christ presumably atoned for all their sins on the cross, for he “IS’ the propitiation, and not just possibly a propitiation or available to be a propitiation. Unless Christ “is” the propitiation for the believers (”us”), then this passage of scripture is no encouragement, but rather something terrifying to behold, since even with Christ the High Priest atoning with His death and advocating to the Father on the behalf of the world, many He died for and advocated for are still finding themselves in hell.
Are you among those who believe Christ was of insufficient value for his death to be a sufficient atonement for all sin?
“Are you among those who believe Christ was of insufficient value for his death to be a sufficient atonement for all sin?”
Christ’s sacrifice is of infinite value to wash the sins of the entire world. When Christ does not give this washing to the reprobate, it does not imply a lack of power to do so. It is His sovereign right not to wash away the sins of the reprobate, but only those given to Him from out of the world.
John 1:29 - "29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
“John 1:29 - “29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!””
And what is it you are trying to prove? That the sin of the reprobate, including the sin of unbelief, is taken away? Is there no definite recipient of atonement?
I’ve become convinced of a “Calminian” God. Free will entry; guaranteed salvation. And how God implements this, which is a paradox but not any kind of self contradiction, is one of His secrets.
**The Spirit blows “where He listeth,” according to His own will, and not the will of man.**
But what saith Jesus Christ?........”..how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ASK him.” Luke 11:13
**Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.**
As a former Calvinist (my first 28 yrs in a very conservative, studious Presbyterian congregation), I was taught there was NO tongues anymore, NO remarkable sound coming from an uncertain location. It’s a real eyebrow raiser to hear a family member suddenly speak a language you KNOW they had not previously known. In my first witness to such a scene was one of “What? Where do that come from? She’s never done that before!”. The Lord said there would be a SOUND, and He said that that would be the case for EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.
Many that pull John 3:16 up for salvation (which IS a wonderful verse), fail to notice that the Lord had just explained in verses 3-8 the proof of believing on Him (if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his).
Thou art a leader among Calvinists, and knowest not these things? (sorry....couldn’t resist)
Humans are spiritual beings and thereby possess capabilities that the time and space bound universe we see, composed of matter and energy, doesn’t. Things that are true of a rock or a tree are not true of a soul.
Exodus 30: 6 Put the altar in front of the curtain that is before the ark of the Testimony--before the atonement cover that is over the Testimony--where I will meet with you. 7 "Aaron must burn fragrant incense on the altar every morning when he tends the lamps. 8 He must burn incense again when he lights the lamps at twilight so incense will burn regularly before the LORD for the generations to come. 9 Do not offer on this altar any other incense or any burnt offering or grain offering, and do not pour a drink offering on it. 10 Once a year Aaron shall make atonement on its horns. This annual atonement must be made with the blood of the atoning sin offering for the generations to come. It is most holy to the LORD."
That atonement was for the entire nation, however, it was effective only for the faithful.
Jeremiah 7: 21 " 'This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your forefathers left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. 26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers.' 27 "When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer. 28 Therefore say to them, 'This is the nation that has not obeyed the LORD its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips. 29 Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, for the LORD has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.
“But what saith Jesus Christ?........”..how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ASK him.” Luke 11:13”
How does that contradict the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit? In these verses, Christ is encouraging, presumably, believers to ask freely of God whatsoever they want, including the blessings of the Holy Spirit. It does not mean that the Holy Spirit does not quicken you to believe in the first place, so that you should desire to be filled with the Spirit.
1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
“The Lord said there would be a SOUND, and He said that that would be the case for EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.”
This sounds like something from one of the Charismatic groups, as they emphasize miraculous gifts. It seems to suggest that tongues is necessary to prove that one is saved. However, tongues is not a universal gift given in the scripture.
1Co 12:29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (30) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
If a believer must make a “SOUND,” presumably of the “diversity of tongues” variety, then Paul wouldn’t ask “do all speak with tongues?” Since it is a given, speaking to Christians, that they would all do so, if what you say is true.
The real witness of the Holy Spirit within us is not tongue speak, but fruits that make us better persons.
Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
The purpose of salvation isn’t just so we can speak in tongues or sit around and rot. He ordains us to “bring forth fruit,” and “to be holy and without blame.” That is not to say that we can be perfect, but the true Christian covets perfection (at least, in spirit, if not in the members of his flesh that wars against him) and to do the will of God.
Gal 5:22-24 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (24) And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Jas_2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
“That atonement was for the entire nation, however, it was effective only for the faithful.”
But that’s not actually what your verse says. If the atonement is for the whole nation, then the whole nation would be forgiven. The atonement, by definition, covers up their sins. Therefore the atonement can only be for the faithful, and not for the faithless.
Now that I think about it, I don’t think we even disagree. Your problem, though, is in confessing the origin of faith, by which one is justified by the atonement. Which you did confess, actually, but you want to maintain the idea that somehow, when God gave you the gift of faith, that in some way that gift was earned by something you did.
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