A look at John 3:14-18

Answering Protestants ^ | 14 September 2013 | Matthew Olson

[Salvation]

LOL!

We have first hand witnesses in the Gospels. Mark traveled with Jesus, Matthew was an apostle, Luke, even though he traveled with Paul for awhile, got his information from traveling with Jesus and from the Blessed Virgin Mary and John was an apostle.

Why do you not believe the Gospels since they are first hand accounts of people who traveled with Jesus?

[Salvation]

Read what this thread says about St. Paul.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3066873/posts

[Ramius]

A cow does not moo to become a cow, a cow moos because it ~is~ a cow.

[jodyel]

I watched the video but my position has not changed.

I am disabled yet born again of the Holy Spirit. While I am not physically or financially able to do much, I am able to lead others to a belief in Jesus. But looking from the outside in, it might appear I do nothing at all in service to Christ. Or as you put it, it might appear I “pay lip service to works.”

Nothing could be further from the truth and no born-again believer pays lip service to works. In fact, I believe the reason so many Catholics emphasize works is because they have not been baptized with the Spirit and do not have that assurance of their salvation. So what they can do is keep busy doing stuff (works) and this gives them comfort and leads them to think they are saved.

Even if I did not another thing after being saved (which is really not possible because the Spirit moves us to reach out to others), I would still be saved and still go to heaven. However, my rewards at the judgment would certainly be minimal. And, again, it is really not possible for one who has been born again to not lead others to Christ or do according to their gifts and talents.

[smvoice]

We have to understand, WV, in the RCC, Bible study ends with John and picks up again with James. “Paul? Paul who? You mean the guy that was part shyster and part saint??” is the typical response. They do not seem to realize that AFTER Christ spoke with the 12, He spoke with Paul. And made him the Apostle to the Gentiles. And gave him Romans through Philemon to give to us to build His Church, the Body of Christ. Not important or flashy enough, I guess. Too bad, there is a WORLD of information given by Christ to Paul to us. Only the gospel of the grace of God, given distinctly for the Body of Christ, among other things..Of course, to admit this would blow apart the deceit of Rome. Not to mention all those saints that have recipes named after them..

[daniel1212]

And the Scriptures tell us that as Christ met the apostles on the shore on Easter, “He breathed on them (imparting the Holy Spirit) saying, “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall bind, they are bound.”

He did so not only to to the apostles, but that meeting also included other disciples, as context indicates, (Mt. 18:18; Jn. 20:23) and it does not mean God must subscribe to any sentence of the priest (besides NT pastors never distinctively being called priests).

I’ll take Christ’s words any day over Paul’s words.

As if one had to. A very revealing statement testifying to the opposition RCs see btwn the gospels and Paul, and preference they have for the former, as they see them supporting Rome more, as they are in theologically need of explanation, which Christ promised, and which the epistles are, without which we would lack much.

[Salvation]

The Gospels are first hand acconts. When did Paul meet Jesus except in being blinded on the way to Damascus?

Fact is — in the bible — Paul persecuted the Christians and did not meet Jesus and have first hand information.

[Salvation]

The third Bible study I led was the prison letters of St. Paul.

You cannot categorize all Catholics in such a way by saying they skip studying Paul.

But I have taught all evangelists as well as James too — even Revelation, which most people want to skip.

This year we are doing Psalms.

[CynicalBear]

>>“He breathed on them (imparting the Holy Spirit) saying, “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall bind, they are bound.”<<

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.

>> I’ll take Christ’s words any day over Paul’s words.<<

Wow! That’s very telling. So you don’t believe the scriptures are actually the words of the Holy Spirit aka inspired?

[jodyel]

And works can be many different things....physical works, financial works, spiritual works...each called according to his/her spiritual gifts and talents.

Some are called to give money, others are called to preach, others are called to raise godly children and keep a godly home, etc. Works are certainly many and varied and naturally flow from someone who is born again of the Spirit.

I do disagree though that faith is a work. All the “work” in/of faith has been done by God. We believe and then once born of the Spirit, we go out and tell others the good news. We do “works” as the Spirit directs us. Any “works” done before being Spirit filled are just that...works with no supernatural direction and without eternal rewards.

God bless,
Jodyel

[WVKayaker]

LOL! ... Why do you not believe the Gospels since they are first hand accounts of people who traveled with Jesus?

LOL indeed. for me, it is more like ROFLMAO.

I believe in all of Holy Scripture, not JUST the Gospels. I believe that every word in the Bible is spoken to our hearts and minds by God. Therefore, I don't try to parse which is superior. All of those generations in the Old Testament, line by line, build the record that God loves us enough to send his son to die on the cross for the forgiveness and expiation of our sins and to bring us back into harmony is his sons and daughters through faith.

Do even read anything beyond the first line? It does not appear so, by your responses. As for your organization trying to play down Paul's teachings, as you appear to do in your previous postings, I don't need to read some heretical teachings from a Roman poseur. I would rather go to the source, my Bible.

Galatians 3: 3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

[smvoice]

And so, what did you learn about Paul? You DO know that Christ spoke to him ear to ear and face to face, don’t you?

[Religion Moderator]

Do not make this thread 'about' individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[jodyel]

“The world, unfortunately, is not that simple.”

The “world” is not simple at all, but faith is. So simple a small child can understand it.

“What happens to the sins committed every day after OSAS procedures?”

They are covered by the blood of Jesus. It is impossible not to sin even as a born-again believer because we are still living in a fallen state. Others have pointed this out, but Paul is a perfect example of this.

We don’t want to sin and we long for the day we will be with Jesus in heaven finally in a sinless state. There will always be sin as long as fallen man is on the planet. Only after the millennial reign of Christ is over and all unbelievers and Satan and demons have been sent to the lake of fire and we enter into eternity will there be no more sin.

More and more as I read what Catholics write here, I am convinced they are not born again of the Spirit and hence have no assurance of salvation. That is a frightening position to be in and one that can be changed. There is no need to live in doubt and fear. But I daresay it will take setting aside the Catholic mindset and wanting Jesus alone to accomplish it. Seek Him first and everything else will be added to you.

God bless,
jodyel

[daniel1212]

Another anti-Prot post by an RC, while they complain about the challenges the incessant promotion of Rome incurs. Moreover, you also engage in the use of a straw man to make Rome lool good, when in fact Reformers defined saving faith as one that effects obedience toward its Object, the Lord Jesus

Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]

This is why St. Luke and St. James have so much to say about works, so that one says: Yes, I will now believe, and then he goes and fabricates for himself a fictitious delusion, which hovers only on the lips as the foam on the water. No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]

[matthewrobertolson]

The average person must be obedient and do good works. However, there are some cases where it is impossible to do good works, like in the case you mentioned. In such cases, the willingness to do good works is sufficient.

[matthewrobertolson]

That verse references the story of Abraham, and I explained it in total context in this video: link

In the video, I point out...
1. the importance of having an active faith (Abraham had to have sex with Sarah to have Isaac, which was key to God's covenant with humanity; Abraham also had to be willing to sacrifice Issac)
2. that Abraham seemed to already have some sort of faith in Genesis 12, and what changed between Genesis 12 and Genesis 15:6 was that Abraham had done good works (he had built three altars in honor of God and had done what God told him to do)
3. that people still had to do works at the beginning of God's covenant (e.g. circumcision), or risk being cut off from Him, and that baptism is, basically, the new circumcision
4. and what Paul meant when he denounced "works."

[matthewrobertolson]

Your first point is flawed. The verse says "because their works were evil" ("their" referring to the "people [that] loved the darkness"), not because all works are evil. Therefore, to say that the verse means that "our works are evil" is quite a big stretch.

Question: How are we able to "give good gifts" if we are totally evil? Doesn't the ability to give good gifts indicate at least a small amount of inherent goodness?

You're missing the point of John 3:20. "For everyone who does wicked things" does not mean the same thing as "For everyone". In context, the verse sets a contrast between those who do "wicked things" and those who do good things.

You're also missing the point of John 3:21. It says that "whoever does what is true comes to the light". You're advocating the inverse of that -- the idea that we start out in the light before we do things. That contradicts the verse.

To understand Ephesians 2:10, you'll probably have to look at verses 8-9 in context (very short, straight-forward video on that here). We are given graces, yes, but these graces do not simply give us salvation, but enable us to do good works and to have faith so that we can do our part of the process.

[matthewrobertolson]

The average person must be obedient and do good works. However, there are some cases where it is impossible to do good works, like in the case you mentioned. In such cases, the willingness to do good works is sufficient.

[matthewrobertolson]

It appears that I am being censored for some reason. I will try putting this all in this single post.

to dglang:

The average person must be obedient and do good works. However, there are some cases where it is impossible to do good works, like in the case you mentioned. In such cases, the willingness to do good works is sufficient.


to man_in_tx:

That verse references the story of Abraham, and I explained it in total context in this video: link

In the video, I point out...
1. the importance of having an active faith (Abraham had to have sex with Sarah to have Isaac, which was key to God's covenant with humanity; Abraham also had to be willing to sacrifice Issac)
2. that Abraham seemed to already have some sort of faith in Genesis 12, and what changed between Genesis 12 and Genesis 15:6 was that Abraham had done good works (he had built three altars in honor of God and had done what God told him to do)
3. that people still had to do works at the beginning of God's covenant (e.g. circumcision), or risk being cut off from Him, and that baptism is, basically, the new circumcision
4. and what Paul meant when he denounced "works."


to HarleyD:

Your first point is flawed. The verse says "because their works were evil" ("their" referring to the "people [that] loved the darkness"), not because all works are evil. Therefore, to say that the verse means that "our works are evil" is quite a big stretch.

Question: How are we able to "give good gifts" if we are totally evil? Doesn't the ability to give good gifts indicate at least a small amount of inherent goodness?

You're missing the point of John 3:20. "For everyone who does wicked things" does not mean the same thing as "For everyone". In context, the verse sets a contrast between those who do "wicked things" and those who do good things.

You're also missing the point of John 3:21. It says that "whoever does what is true comes to the light". You're advocating the inverse of that -- the idea that we start out in the light before we do things. That contradicts the verse.

To understand Ephesians 2:10, you'll probably have to look at verses 8-9 in context (very short, straight-forward video on that here). We are given graces, yes, but these graces do not simply give us salvation, but enable us to do good works and to have faith so that we can do our part of the process.