Hurry, and the whine sounds might catch up and be part of the
whrr-whrr sound it'll make when getting back on the track
Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)
There is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us.
Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is “unbiblical,” while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. But they are incorrect.
1 Timothy 2:5 — the infamous “one mediator between God and men” verse — refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.
I was raised in several Protestant denominations. They all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other — which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.
To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them, would you not be more likely to help them if they were your best friend, as opposed to a complete stranger? Of course, you may very well be willing to do something for a complete stranger, but you would probably be more willing to do something for your best friend.
And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.
“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” – Revelation 8:3-4
The word for “saints” in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayer’s New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is “most holy thing, a saint”. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that “saints” in this context can only refer to people on earth.
Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific? It is like interacting with a DJ at an event. He’s playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song?
Here’s my Scripture-based defense of the practice that should answer most Protestant objections:
Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31.
Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not “saints” in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.
Revelation 6:9-11.
The martyrs can talk to God.
From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God.
Luke 15:10.
The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.
1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16.
It is good for Christians to pray for one another.
Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldn’t they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?
Revelation 21:27.
Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.
Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16.
God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so that’s why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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Pitchers just LEAP out at you when searching!
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oh, good grief.....Mother Theresa was no closer to God when she finished that when she began....could it be that she was with God when she began???? While her activities certainly could not gain her salvation, that is a gift from God....but they could have certainly convinced God that she in no way rejected His gift. We should all be afraid, every day, that our actions might convince God that we reject His gifts.....divorced and remarried??, lie??.., steal??,..practice birth control??..., have an abortion???...ignore His calling to the religion that He founded??....agree with same sex anything except friendship???...decide, on your own, that you don't need Catholicism nor any protestant denomination and that you can make up your own rules as you go along???...
believe me...Mother Theresa NEVER doubted her religion...she just worried that she may not have been up to fulfilling Christ's expectations for mankind.....she need not have worried, and it will not be long before Christ's church declares her a saint...
Are you kidding?!?!
Don't you have a God who sees the heart and not the outward appearances?
believe me...Mother Theresa NEVER doubted her religion...she just worried that she may not have been up to fulfilling Christ's expectations for mankind.....she need not have worried, and it will not be long before Christ's church declares her a saint...
I can believe that she never doubted her *RELIGION*. It's whether she doubted her God that's important.
And so what if the *Church* decides to canonize her?
She shouldn't have to worry? You mean the might not be aware whether she's in heaven or not until the Catholic church canonizes her? I'll bet that's a weight off her mind.
The egregious extrapolation seen in these attempts are due to the fact that out of all the abundance of material the Holy Spirit provided on prayer, yet there is absolutely zero examples of any prayer to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, nor any instructions to address anyone in Heaven but the Lord, and despite it being such a normative practice in Catholic "Christianity." Nor is there any actual evidence of another Heavenly intercessor btwn man and God save for Christ, or that believers have anything less than direct access to God. Or that only a certain class of believers are saints in Heaven, and who personally hear and respond to almost infinite amounts of prayer.
This attempt to support PTDS by Scripture is like a recent one, and to think they are convincing to those who esteem Scripture as the supreme authority is a negative testimony as to what submission to Rome can effect. I have advised that their best argument is to stay silent, though the other recourse would be to attempt to argue that submission to Rome is how assurance of truth is realized, (based upon the premise that she is the inheritor of Divine promises, and the steward of Divine revelation and has historical decent).
14 Errors in support of prayer to departed saints in Heaven.
Error # 1.
1 Timothy 2:5 — the infamous “one mediator between God and men” verse — refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not..After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.
This refers to Christ being the only Heavenly intercessor, that of an advocate-mediator, not simply the atonement, but in prayers, for as Heb. 7:25 clearly states, "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25) And Gabriel was not acting as a advocate between man and God, but a messenger. But RCs are prone to reject what Scripture states when it refutes them, or force it to support Rome.
Error # 2 (reasoning).
I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.
Not only does Scripture refer to all believers as “saints” and who are with the Lord when absent for the body, but a holy saint in Heaven would not be as a rebellious sinner in adding to the Scriptures what it not there. Out of the multitudes of prayers to Heaven in Scripture (about 100), the Holy Spirit does not provide even one prayer to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, nor teach addressing anyone but God, another Heavenly intercessor between God and man save for Christ as the God-man, or that believers have anything but direct access to God in the holy of holies. (Heb. 10:19)
Error # 3.
To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them..,
This is using extrapolation from human relationships to teach that believers in Heaven can, like God, hear incessant mental prayers addressed to them and personally respond, and that such prayer is Scriptural, but which is not what is seen or taught therein, in contrast to addressing God in prayer to Heaven. It also appeals to human reasoning in teaching what is not taught in Scripture, similar to what so-called JWs do. Yet as said, for RCs the veracity of truth claims is not based on either human reasoning or the weight of Scriptural substantiation, but in condescension to evangelicals they feel free to abuse Scripture to serve their own end.
Error # 4.
And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.
The issue is not whether saints in Heaven can pray to God, such as in inquiring when God will avenge their blood, (Rv. 6:10) but whether they can, like only God is shown being able to do, hear and respond to incessant mental prayers addressed to them, and that believers should thus address prayers to them in Heaven, but neither which is what Scripture shows and teaches.
Error # 5.
This refers to angels offering up prayers of the saints, evidently in the memorial sense as seen in Scripture, (Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) rather than angels acting as a regular postal service for a special class of believers on Heaven or in earth.
Error # 6.
The word for “saints” in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayer’s New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is “most holy thing, a saint”. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that “saints” in this context can only refer to people on earth.
That is absurd. The word for saint (hagios) is used to describe all believers, not a special class who alone are in Heaven. According to the Roman Catholic rendering, “Distributing to the necessity of saints,” “I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints,” "For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you," (Rm. 15:25; 2Cor. 9:1) means the rest of believers can fend for themselves. Likewise “the love which ye have to all the saints," (Colossians 1:4) means love toward one class of believers and ignoring the rest, but the word is used for all believers, such as "all the saints which are in all Achaia." (2Cor. 1:1) And that saints are not a distinct mature class is shown by the fact that they are subjects of growth unto perfection thereto, referring to the whole church. (Eph. 4:12)
Moreover, texts such as "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 1:1) is not distinguishing btwn two classes of believers, that of saints versus simply faithful believers, but such is a parallelism such as, “We are his people and the sheep of his pasture” (Ps. 99:3) Otherwise other non-saint believers are being neglected in, "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:" (Philippians 1:1) Instead, the saints are faithful brethren and faithful brethren are saints, growing toward fuller maturity.
Error # 7.
Now, what would the saints [in Heaven] be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us.
This assertion is that the the offering up of the prayers of the saints by angels refers to prayer being made by a special class of believers in Heaven, which is just another example of RCs engaging in private interpretation, as this is not official interpretation, but RCs have liberty to wrest support from Scripture to support Rome. In contrast, rather than prayers being made to saints in Heaven, and which are delivered by an angelic postal service, what Scripture teaches is that believers have direct access into the Holy of holies to meet directly with almighty God, through the sinless shed blood of the risen Lord Jesus, who ever lives to make intercession for us. "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus," (Hebrews 10:19) And the angels would be offering up prayers of the saints made on earth, evidently in the memorial sense as seen in Scripture, (Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) as said.
Error # 8.
Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31. Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not “saints” in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.
But which is not that of believers on earth praying to departed saints who are in Heaven, but instead it was that of the Lord speaking to (and not praying to as in supplication for favor) believers coming to earth, or going to Heaven as in a vision, either of which was required in all other communication between created beings in Heaven or earth, while God alone is shown able to hear and respond to mental prayers from earth to Heaven.
Error # 9.
Revelation 6:9-11. The martyrs can talk to God.
Indeed, but as expressed above, the issue is not whether saints in Heaven can pray to God, such as in inquiring when God will avenge their blood, (Rv. 6:10) but whether they can, like only God is shown being able to do, hear and respond to incessant mental prayers addressed to them, and that believers should thus address prayers to them in Heaven, but neither which is what Scripture shows and teaches.
Error # 10.
Luke 15:10. The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.
The text does not say they are equal to the angels (check the Greek), but as in Mt. 22:30, that they “are as the angels of God in heaven,” with the context being that of not marrying.
In addition, inquiring about when justice will come does not mean they are cognizant of details of current earthly events by communication with earth, as they would know the end is near due to the arrival of new martyrs in Heaven, and increased activity.
Moreover, in any case, being aware of earthly events of earth events does not translate into them having God-like ability to hear and respond to incessant prayers addressed to them, much less teach that it is proper to pray to them.
Error # 11.
1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16. It is good for Christians to pray for one another.
Indeed it is, as well as wash the saint's feet and take up collections, and ordain elders, etc., but which also does not not translate into praying to the departed in Heaven, which Scripture shows only God is the direct object of, and abundantly so.
Error # 12.
Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldn’t they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?
Again, being able to interact with God does not establish that the departed can hear and respond to prayers addressed to them, or much less teach that believers are to do so. The reasoning that says it is marginalizes the fact that nowhere does the Holy Spirit example it, or teach prayers to Heaven are to be addressed to anyone but God, not crying "Mama, Mother," but "Abba, Father," (Gal. 4:6) nor such things as "I bow my knees unto the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ," (Ephesians 3:14) and we are specifically instructed to pray to God, not "our Mother who art in Heaven..."
Error # 13.
Revelation 21:27. Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.
Indeed, which is why souls must be saved by grace through faith, in which is counted for righteousness, not salvation by grace through works, though saving faith must be of the kind that effects the “obedience of faith,” and such faith works toward practical maturity (perfection). But Paul was sure that he would be with the Lord even though he was not already perfect, (Phil. 1:23,24; 3:10-15) and assured the Corinthian believers that they would also be if the Lord returned while they were alive. (1Cor. 15; cf. 1Thes. 4:17)
As for the goal of perfection as regards PTDS, what Scripture shows is that this growth, which takes place on earth with its temptations and trials (thus the Lord Himself was made “perfect” in overcoming all types of temptations), is helped by living saints, and never does it teach this was done by praying to the departed, which is an inexplicable omission in the light of its being such a basic and common practice and its supposed benefit, and the abundance that is supplied on prayer to Heaven.
Error # 14.
Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16. God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Indeed, and what example is provided for this? Prayer to departed saints? No, not anywhere, but prayer by a living man of God to the the Lord in Heaven. This only is what is exampled, instructed and required of believers, while the only example of prayer to someone else in Heaven but the Lord is that of pagans. (Jer. 43)
See here for a compilation of prayers in the Bible, and search for one prayer addressed to any one else in Heaven but the Lord, to whom the Holy Spirit in believers also prays to, (Gal. 4:6) and the Lord Jesus instructed. Follow the Lord, not Rome and its inventions or paganism, which influenced PTDS. As the Catholic Encyclopedia offers regarding this. A further reinforcement, of the same idea, was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm)
no you don't...the way He taught and the way that was followed by the Apostles and as time went by became known as Catholicism...there was noone else around as "denominations" The AQpostles recorded it all , transcribed it, edited it, interpreted it, and copied it for posterity. The Catholic Church continued to do so for over 1,600 years until the revolutionists decided that the Catholics had misinterpreted the bible and that they knew better what Christ meant in the books which the Catholic Church gave them. You recieved the Gospel of your salvation solely through the extraordinary efforte of Catholic Monks and institutions which copied the bible, by hand, so that it would be available for you to misinterpret.....at least say thanks. The "blood bought redeemed" are fully capable of rejecting Christ's magnificent gift and I fear that some have done just that. Once saved, always saved is total nonsense...doesn't have a modicum of common sense in it...but it certainly is an easy way to assume that you got it right.....you didn't.
done deal???? so you can live any lifestyle that you choose and Christ will honor His gift????be careful, be very careful.
I agree that you don't have to keep current on getting saved again, but you certainly have to keep current on retaining the gift which God bestowed on us. Follow His religion, recieve the Eucharist on a regular basis, and stop making up your own rules.....they would all help.
Then perhaps you can correctly *interpret* the following verses and tell us how being sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption doesn't really mean sealed until the day of redemption.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
It’s really not difficult at all to trace much of the RCC teachings and practice back to paganism is it? And for the RCC itself to readily admit that fact is nothing less than astounding. I pray that those who God is calling to “come out of her” will take heed.
Yeah...
Complete with genuflects, Holy Water and crossing yourself.
Answer:
1) It doesn't.
2) It can't.
Why? Which Bible would this imaginary verse apply to? Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants use different Bibles. We disagree over what constitutes the canon of Scripture.
It's an issue that no Bible can settle. The solution can only reside in an infallible, extra-biblical authority.
not necessarily...as humans our language can sometimes be misinterpreted...Christ did, indeed, come to build His church and He did so. On this rock I will build My church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The group of apostles and their followers, over the years, became known as Catholics, or the universal church.
Religion is the practice of being a Christian and, of course, the Catholic church was the ONLY Christian relegion for 1,600+ years. He saves sinners by establishing Christianity which mankind can follow until the end of time. (salvation, of course, was through the crucifixion) but the continued teaching of that fact and the writings which the Catholic church so miraculously preserved and protected are the basis of the Catholic religion and is called the Catholic Church...
No, religion is the OPPOSITE of being a Christian. Nothing could be more wrong that your post.
answering questions with questions is meaningless chatter.
and why do you say that Judas was never saved....(question)
and why do you say that Judas was never saved....(question)
Because Jesus said so.....
She posted it to me.
you are so, so, so, so, wrong about the Catholic Chu8rch that it borders on self deception. If it makes you feel better, have at it....but you are wrong....very wrong.
WOW, you understand paying respect(genuflection) and sacramentals...Holy Water etc...and commeration, (crossing onesself. Keep studying and you too can make it as a Catholic.
where, pray tell, does Jesus say that Judas was predestined to go to hell?????? (you say he was never saved) I thought for sure that Jesus came to save all of mankind. I didn't realize that you had to get a ticket on the salvation express.
Could you be a little more specific?
*You're wrong, so there!* doesn't qualify as a convincing argument in your favor.
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