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Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation
bibleprophecyblog.com ^ | July 6, 2011 | Dr. Thomas Ice

Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel

Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice

Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.

Church Age Tribulation

Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,

"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).

It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:

"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).

Later it was also said,

"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).

Paul tells us,

"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).

Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,

"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).

Peter noted the following:

"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).

Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.

Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:

And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.

Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]

I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.

The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.

The Tribulation

The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).

It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour

Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:

"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).

In the same epistle he says,

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).

Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.

Revelation 3:10 says,

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."

This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.

Conclusion

The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.

I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!

Endnotes

[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.


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To: smvoice
Thanks for the input, but I trust God’s Word alone.

I only lay it out in such a way as to make it easy to understand. By all means do your own research. :-)

It's all pretty awesome!

301 posted on 10/07/2013 6:41:51 PM PDT by Errant
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To: Errant; smvoice
>>beginning the worst of the tribulation (the wrath).<<

They already knew after the first 5 seals that it was the wrath of God already.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Not “is coming” or “will come” but “is come” as in “it’s here”.

302 posted on 10/07/2013 6:42:05 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear
You hadn’t heard that God abandoned Israel for a time when they denied Christ and accepted His blood on their hands?

Then where is the bill of her divorcement?

303 posted on 10/07/2013 6:42:47 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1; editor-surveyor; CynicalBear; jodyel

Wait a minute. I have read Isaiah 52 three times now. I do not see where the Jews are called the “married wife”. Please give me the actual Scripture number so I can see this for myself. Thanks.


304 posted on 10/07/2013 6:43:04 PM PDT by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: Errant
YES it is! THe MOST AWESOME Book we will EVER have the honor to study and discuss with each other! Thanks for your input. It's ALWAYS welcome:)

God Bless, smvoice

305 posted on 10/07/2013 6:45:10 PM PDT by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: smvoice
I suppose that too is a mystery. ;)

Seriously, I'm not sure why the almighty choose to reveal some of the mystery, but not all of it at once. Much still remains a mystery. We have to go by what we've been given. We are promised more will be revealed in the end. Maybe our puny brains just can't handle it all, or maybe it has to be kept a secret from the evil which now rules this world?

306 posted on 10/07/2013 6:50:14 PM PDT by Errant
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To: Errant; editor-surveyor; CynicalBear; jodyel; roamer_1

I think He HAS already revealed the Mystery to us. It was given as a series of revelations from the risen Christ to Paul, the person chosen by Christ to reveal the Church the BOdy of Christ and this dispensation of Grace that we now live in. Remember, Paul said he was given revelations (plural) and that we were to follow him as he followed Christ. All that we need to know about this age of the grace of God and reconciliation to Him have been divulged. IMHO. We’re just awaiting the final member of the Body to be saved and brought into the Body. Then we’re gone. And it’s off to the tribulation for the unbelievers. That’s what Romans through Philemon teaches us. BTW: nowhere else in the Bible talks about this time of the grace of God. Why? Because it was a mystery, a secret, hid in God since the foundation of the world, until revealed to Paul. See how succinctly and perfectly His Word fits?!


307 posted on 10/07/2013 7:00:06 PM PDT by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: roamer_1; smvoice
>>Then where is the bill of her divorcement?<<

That’s what God asked to of the silly people who teach that He divorced Israel. He simply punished her by putting her away but as seen in verse two He will redeem her.

Isaiah 50:1 Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away. 2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem?

The “bill of divorcement” is simply a warning that He never carried through as seen in Isaiah 50.

Jeremiah 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

God said He would never forsake His people.

In Deuteronomy 4:31, God made a promise never to forsake His people, "For the LORD thy God is a merciful God; he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them."

Those who teach that God divorced the Jewish people need to rethink their position on certain verses or agree that they believe God did not stand jup to His promises.

308 posted on 10/07/2013 7:10:54 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: smvoice; Errant; editor-surveyor; jodyel; roamer_1
>>See how succinctly and perfectly His Word fits?!<<

The more I learn the more awestruck and thankful and humbled I am.

309 posted on 10/07/2013 7:15:01 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear
Not “is coming” or “will come” but “is come” as in “it’s here”.

They (the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man) just are going to think it has come. The terrible wrath (woe) appears to come after the 7th seal is opened (rev. 8), after those in Yeshua have been removed from the scene (rev. 7).

310 posted on 10/07/2013 7:16:31 PM PDT by Errant
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To: smvoice
I think He HAS already revealed the Mystery to us.

No, only a very small portion to date. There are numerous scriptures that explain this fact. I'll give you just this one to consider, since I'm in that book now. ;)

Rev. 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

311 posted on 10/07/2013 7:20:21 PM PDT by Errant
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To: Errant
>>just are going to think it has come.<<

So the Holy Spirit couldn’t have used a word to indicate that? Did the Holy Spirit not know what words meant? Read through the first portion of Revelation 6. All the carnage is caused by God because of His anger. Not once did God subject His faithful followers to His anger or wrath. In fact He told us we would not experience His wrath.

312 posted on 10/07/2013 7:22:24 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

Websites are for scripture deniers and twisters like you. I stick with the scriptures that you reject; they are infallible.

Revelation 6 is a perfect example of how you attempt to force your view on scripture. Chapter 6 has the wrath at the end of the chapter, and you attempt to place it at the beginning, making no sense at all, since the beginning of the chapter depicts events form over 1000 years ago.

Give up on your websites and their pre-trib concoctions.


313 posted on 10/07/2013 7:23:26 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: CynicalBear
The more I learn the more awestruck and thankful and humbled I am.

Well said!

314 posted on 10/07/2013 7:26:54 PM PDT by Errant
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To: editor-surveyor

When you actually back up your beliefs with scripture as I have get back to me.


315 posted on 10/07/2013 7:30:53 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear
In fact He told us we would not experience His wrath.

There again, I believe he is referring to that which will be poured out on the earth after the 7th seal. By the use of "His" wrath divides the tribulation and this division is centered around the "day of the Lord". The book of Revelation is not chronological - but you probably know this.

316 posted on 10/07/2013 7:35:37 PM PDT by Errant
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To: CynicalBear; editor-surveyor
FYI, Pretty much everything editor-surveyor writes is based on a very good understanding of scripture and can be found therein. He is one of the more knowledgeable posters on FR.
317 posted on 10/07/2013 7:41:52 PM PDT by Errant
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To: CynicalBear; Errant

>> “When you actually back up your beliefs with scripture as I have get back to me” <<

.
Are you trying to make us all laugh?

You demolish an entire chapter of Revelation, and condense thousands of years and place it in the 3-1/2 year tribulation and then say that it backs up your twisted beliefs?

The seals cover from the beginning to the end of the time of man. Can you not see that?

The wrath of Yehova arrives at the end of the chapter.

Rev. 1: [19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

You make the past into the future in your imaginings.

You do not know how to read the book.


318 posted on 10/07/2013 8:00:38 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: smvoice; editor-surveyor; CynicalBear; jodyel
Wait a minute. I have read Isaiah 52 three times now. I do not see where the Jews are called the “married wife”. Please give me the actual Scripture number so I can see this for myself. Thanks.

Sorry, my bad - Is 50, see from halfway 49 that he is talking of Zion (Jerusalem/Judah), and by 50 is talking to the daughter thereof. See 52 'daughter of Zion sold herself for nothing' enforces that her mother got no bill of divorcement.

Srry, btw so late - had to take my daughter back to her mom.

319 posted on 10/07/2013 8:01:45 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: CynicalBear; smvoice; Errant; editor-surveyor; jodyel
That’s what God asked to of the silly people who teach that He divorced Israel. He simply punished her by putting her away but as seen in verse two He will redeem her.

Then Judah/Zion is the married wife, having never been divorced - So who is the barren woman (Is 54) told to jump for joy after the death of Messiah (Is 53)? Here is another hint: How was she widowed?

320 posted on 10/07/2013 8:07:39 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: editor-surveyor
Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

321 posted on 10/07/2013 8:07:45 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: roamer_1; smvoice; CynicalBear; jodyel

Perhaps you have missed the point that these Pre-Tribbers think that OT prophecy is not for us.

That is likely why they do not understand a single sentence of it. If you think something is not for your benefie, it is hard to focus your mind on it.

CB even asked me to post the scripture declaring Yehova’s feasts.

Every point you try to make, you must begin at the absolute foundational level, and even then you will draw a blank.


322 posted on 10/07/2013 8:12:18 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Religion Moderator

Didn’t have to read any mind, he wrote all that I stated in previous posts.


323 posted on 10/07/2013 8:15:04 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor; smvoice; CynicalBear; jodyel
Perhaps you have missed the point that these Pre-Tribbers think that OT prophecy is not for us. That is likely why they do not understand a single sentence of it. If you think something is not for your benefie, it is hard to focus your mind on it.

I have no ire towards them - These are my good FRiends, and not so long ago, I thought like they do. Shoot, I still DO think a lot like they do - Steel sharpens steel..

Every point you try to make, you must begin at the absolute foundational level, and even then you will draw a blank.

That is why I am focusing upon the barren woman (I bet you know who she is) - This is exactly the verse that finally proved to me that I was down the rabbit hole, and taught me to seek out the whole Word of YHWH.

Shalom. The Truth IS out there :P

324 posted on 10/07/2013 8:22:16 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1
So who is the barren woman (Is 54) told to jump for joy after the death of Messiah (Is 53)?

Who do you believe she is? :)

325 posted on 10/07/2013 9:02:06 PM PDT by Errant
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To: Errant
Who do you believe she is? :)

Aw, I don't want to say just yet...I want our FRiends to chew on it for themselves...

She can only be one.

326 posted on 10/07/2013 9:27:47 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

Awesome chapters. Especially 53 for Jewish believers.

Thanks,


327 posted on 10/07/2013 9:41:08 PM PDT by Errant
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To: roamer_1; editor-surveyor; Errant; CynicalBear; jodyel
I'm sorry that I'm just getting back to this. I had to walk away last night, and just be quiet in the Lord for awhile. Searching the scriptures to see if these things are so, like the Bereans.

Before I'm ready to discuss Isaiah, Chapter 50, this must be said: 1 Peter 1:10,11."Of which salvation the prophets have INQUIRED AND SEARCHED DILIGENTLY, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: SEARCHING WHAT, or what MANNER OF TIME, THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHICH WAS IN THEM DID SIGNIFY, when it testified beforehand the suffering of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

They did not search merely concerning the "manner of time", the character of the times, during which these things should transpire. They searched and inquired diligently to discover "WHAT...the Spirit...did signify,", what HE MEANT, "when He testified beforehand the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow." And the next verse goes on to explain that GOd revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to THOSE OF A FUTURE TIME.

So we know that the OT prophets wrote, without understanding exactly who or when, to a future generation of people about future events.

So it is with Isaiah 50. It was Judah that God said He would divorce. Because of the people selling themselves to commit sin (v1), the Babylonian captivity of the kingdom). He says that Judah is hopeless to try to be redeemed by man. He makes it clear that only He and He alone could redeem, and confirming it with what He had done by His power in the past (v2-3)

All of this prophecy is future when Isaiah wrote it. The divorce between God and Judah took place over 100 years in the future, when the Babylonians took captive the kingdom.

328 posted on 10/08/2013 5:00:46 AM PDT by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: Errant; smvoice
>> There again, I believe he is referring to that which will be poured out on the earth after the 7th seal.<<

The wrath begins with the first seal in Chapter 6. There isn’t space enough here to go into but here is a site that begins to explain for those who are interested.

The first three chapters are dealing with the church age but chapter 4 begins with “hereafter”. It’s after the church aged because the “fullness of the Gentiles” has come and the church was taken from the earth. It’s after that we see a shift and the attention is in heaven and what is going to happen to the earth and those on it.

http://www.jesusisthecomingking.com/2011/03/when-does-gods-wrath-start.html

>> The book of Revelation is not chronological -<<

I disagree with that statement. Again, because of space I will simply list one site that helps explain.

http://prophecy.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/rev-chronology.html

329 posted on 10/08/2013 7:59:41 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: smvoice

>> “So we know that the OT prophets wrote, without understanding exactly who or when, to a future generation of people about future events.” <<

.
Is that not always the case?

Samuel wasn’t even aware that Yehova was talking to him, he thought that the voice was coming from another room.

Prophet is not an easy assignment. Yet Paul said that was the job to apply for above all.


330 posted on 10/08/2013 8:20:07 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: CynicalBear

>> “The wrath begins with the first seal in Chapter 6.” <<

.
Then we have been living in the ‘wrath’ for over a thousand years.


331 posted on 10/08/2013 8:22:03 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Errant; editor-surveyor
>>FYI, Pretty much everything editor-surveyor writes is based on a very good understanding of scripture and can be found therein. He is one of the more knowledgeable posters on FR.<<

Yeah, that’s why we very seldom see any scripture to substantiate or prove where his beliefs come from in scripture. It’s always a diatribe of what he believes with very, very little scriptural support.

332 posted on 10/08/2013 8:29:59 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: editor-surveyor
>>Rev. 1: [19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;<<

Yep, The things he saw, the things which are ie the church age through chapter 3, and the things which are “hereafter” ie after the church aged.

333 posted on 10/08/2013 8:32:17 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: editor-surveyor
>>Perhaps you have missed the point that these Pre-Tribbers think that OT prophecy is not for us.<<

LOL Prophesy concerning Israel is not for the Gentile church.

334 posted on 10/08/2013 8:34:11 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: editor-surveyor
>>Then we have been living in the ‘wrath’ for over a thousand years.<<

Only in the minds of those who don’t know prophecy.

335 posted on 10/08/2013 8:37:57 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear; editor-surveyor
Yeah, that’s why we very seldom see any scripture to substantiate or prove where his beliefs come from in scripture.

You're the one famous for saying, "There isn’t space enough here to go into but here is a site that begins to explain for those who are interested." lol

336 posted on 10/08/2013 8:49:50 AM PDT by Errant
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To: Errant
>>You're the one famous for saying, "There isn’t space enough here to go into but here is a site that begins to explain for those who are interested." Lol<<

I doubt the one time I have used that constitutes “famous for”. The sites I listed include much scripture to substantiate what they are saying. I have asked for some indication that can substantiate scripture sources for the beliefs expressed to even include web sites that do so to only be ridiculed.

337 posted on 10/08/2013 8:56:26 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear; editor-surveyor
>> The book of Revelation is not chronological -<< I disagree with that statement. Again, because of space I will simply list one site that helps explain.

That probably explains your confusion then. The book of Revelation contains several sections that provide details interspersed within telling of the revelation of Yeshua.

I'll try to write more pertaining to our discussion of when the wrath of the Almighty begins later. No time now... ;)

338 posted on 10/08/2013 8:56:29 AM PDT by Errant
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To: Errant
>>I'll try to write more pertaining to our discussion of when the wrath of the Almighty begins later.<<

I’ll look forward to it. I’m not feeling well today so may or may not be here much.

339 posted on 10/08/2013 8:59:03 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: editor-surveyor

Yes, it is ALWAYS the case. And obviously you know that. But there are others who may be following our discussion that do not know it. That’s why I always try to include Scripture, Chapter and verse when answering a post. :)


340 posted on 10/08/2013 9:12:32 AM PDT by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: smvoice
[the prophets] searched and inquired diligently to discover "WHAT...the Spirit...did signify,", what HE MEANT, "when He testified beforehand the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow." And the next verse goes on to explain that GOd revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to THOSE OF A FUTURE TIME.

Accepted, and true - but we cannot parse the prophets on that basis - THEY didn't know what they were talking about, but YHWH did. The testimony of Yeshua the Messiah IS the spirit of prophecy(Rev 19:10). Since the entirety of Scripture, the whole of it, is prophetic, then the whole of Scripture IS the Testimony of Yeshua. It cannot be double-minded, but always pointing the same way, because the author and witness of the Prophecy is Yeshua. HE said every word of it.

So it is with Isaiah 50. It was Judah that God said He would divorce. Because of the people selling themselves to commit sin (v1), the Babylonian captivity of the kingdom). He says that Judah is hopeless to try to be redeemed by man. He makes it clear that only He and He alone could redeem, and confirming it with what He had done by His power in the past (v2-3)

Then there should be a bill of divorcement - But there is no evidence thereof - YHWH has never said to Judah, "You are not my people, and I am not your God." The good news set aside for a moment, the Bible is also a very legal document, spanning every and all 'contracts' between YHWH and Man. I find it hard to believe that He would not include the very specific language that requires (He DID do so once, and only once, and not against Judah).

And Is 54 makes a specific distinction between the 'wife' and the 'barren woman' - The barren woman would have way more children than the married wife - so they specifically cannot be the same entity. The wife admittedly has children, the barren woman does not (at the time of the prophecy). They are two different things. One WAS a wife in her youth, acted shamefully, and was rejected. The other, the married wife, still IS married.

All of this prophecy is future when Isaiah wrote it. The divorce between God and Judah took place over 100 years in the future, when the Babylonians took captive the kingdom.

No, He never has divorced her, and could not divorce her, because the Promised One had to come through Judah. Don't get me wrong, Judah did poorly, and was sorely punished more than once, but the scepter and the rod could not be taken away... Hence never divorced. The rod and the scepter were declared ALWAYS to reside in Judah, and that can't have changed.

Judah is the wife, not the barren woman.

341 posted on 10/08/2013 11:38:10 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1; CynicalBear; jodyel

Then please tell us who it is, IYHO. So we can move forward with this! :)


342 posted on 10/08/2013 12:13:32 PM PDT by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: roamer_1; CynicalBear; jodyel; editor-surveyor
I'm willing to take one more shot at this: it is VERY interesting!

Is the "barren woman" the Sadducees and Pharisees of Matthew 3:7? FALSE ISRAEL. As compared to the Little Flock of Luke 12:32, TRUE ISRAEL?

343 posted on 10/08/2013 12:29:19 PM PDT by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: smvoice; roamer_1; jodyel; metmom

The barren woman is the New Jerusalem which up until that time had no children. After Christ’s death and resurrection is when the New Jerusalem began to “have children” as in those converted. The children of the New Jerusalem consist of both Jews and Gentiles that were converted and saved by Christ.


344 posted on 10/08/2013 12:55:02 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

THANK YOU and that makes PERFECT sense, CB!


345 posted on 10/08/2013 1:04:25 PM PDT by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: smvoice
>> THANK YOU and that makes PERFECT sense.<<

Scripture is like that when we pray for guidance by the Holy Spirit. No thanks to me (although I know what you mean) but thanks be to God for enlightenment.

346 posted on 10/08/2013 1:06:42 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

AMEN! So FINALLY we can move forward with this!


347 posted on 10/08/2013 1:08:52 PM PDT by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: editor-surveyor; Errant; CynicalBear; jodyel
whoops! meant to ping y'all to #328
348 posted on 10/08/2013 1:38:59 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: CynicalBear; smvoice; jodyel; metmom; editor-surveyor; Errant
The barren woman is the New Jerusalem which up until that time had no children. After Christ’s death and resurrection is when the New Jerusalem began to “have children” as in those converted. The children of the New Jerusalem consist of both Jews and Gentiles that were converted and saved by Christ.

Ultimately true (Gal 4:27)- but are you telling me that New Jerusalem had a shame of her youth? was married in her youth and rejected? New Jerusalem is spotless. New Jerusalem was not rejected by YHWH. There must be more in Gal 4:27.

The Barren woman is the House of Israel (as distinct from the House of Judah), referring to the northern Kingdom. BOTH were married to YHWH, but the Northern tribes were divorced:

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Nonetheless, promises specific to the house of Isreal (all of Hosea particularly) must be fulfilled. They are the ones called lo ammi 'not my people'. They are the ones who are to be passed through the nations as seed. They are rejected of YHWH entirely... though in the place where they were rejected HE SWEARS they will one day be called the Sons of YHWH. He promises that one day he will marry her again.

But the law states explicitly that a man can take back a woman out of divorcement ONLY if she has not slept with another during the time of divorcement (which Israel certainly DID). So how does YHWH honor His promise to take her back without breaking His Law (which He will never do)?

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Somebody had to die to end the marriage vow. Then a new marriage vow could be arranged. Rachel weeps for her children because they are not - Benjamin and Joseph - Joseph of the coat of many colors (races?) Joseph whose children were not of a Hebrew mother - Joseph whose strength was in the land of Egypt before they were told to 'come out of her'. But Joseph (and most of Benjamin) were carried away - How many children do you think Rachel has by now?

@smvoice:

What started this conversation was your suggestion that most of the Church is gentile - It is said that the most prolific seed found in Asia and Europe is the seed of Ghengis Khan, and that in but a handful of centuries in comparison to the seed of the House of Israel... And that by one man in comparison to the nation of men hauled away thousands of years ago, and dispersed throughout the nations. But YHWH SWORE he would not even let ONE seed of the House of Israel escape his view.

When the Jews rejected the Annointed One, YHWH SWORE to take the covenant from them and give it to lo ammi - Give it to 'Not my People' It is she who inherits the gentiles, both by conversion to the Covenant, and very likely by actual bloodline. Do not forget who is grafted unto whom. Replacement theology leaves it's mark on Christendom, even to this day.

Who then is the Bride? Exactly who you think she is, but with a depth that is not understood. There is not one thing for the Jew and one thing for the Gentile, but rather, by now, the Jew and the Gentile are one thing.

And that is but a tiny touch on what one will find if one can distinguish the difference between Israel and Judah, and the Whole House of Israel (both together). I don't think one can even begin to understand the prophets without that distinction. Look now to whom Yeshua sent His disciples...

349 posted on 10/08/2013 2:46:09 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: CynicalBear
I'm sorry to hear you are not feeling well. Hope you are better now.

I'll be brief. Between the opening of the sixth and seventh seals is chapter 7 (KJV). Chapter 7 deals with the destiny of those who are protected. Then the seventh seal is opened in chapter 8, when the seven trumps begin sounding.

In Matthew 24, Yeshua describes the sounding of the trumps as follows:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There appear markers dividing the "tribulation" from the much worse "wrath/woe". They are the appearance of the Messiah in the heavens (the day of the Lord), the sounding of the trumpets, and the transformation of those who are in Messiah (both the living and those in the grave).

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

In the opinion of many who've studied this for many years, the above will likely occur on Tishri 1 (of the corrected calendar), Yom Teruuah (year unknown) - (fifteen days prior to the marriage supper of the Lamb).

350 posted on 10/08/2013 4:38:32 PM PDT by Errant
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