Skip to comments.Meet "Kosher Frank" (Pope says Church cannot engage in proselytism)
Posted on 10/07/2013 5:36:12 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
Meet "Kosher Frank"
This story needs no commentary because it speaks for itself. Jorge Bergoglio is not a Catholic nor a Pope - but an apostate. What we are seeing here are the next steps in the amalgamation of all religions into one, the prelude to the Antichrist.
[Taken from Vatican Insider, 9/29/13. Coloring added for emphasis.] [But no coloring on FR]
"Pope Francis and Rabbi Skorka make history in the Vatican" by Gerard O'Connell, Rome
... We hold to different traditions, but we are creating a dialogue that has not existed for centuries. Both of us believe that God has something to do with our friendship and with what we are doing. There are too many coincidences for it all to be mere chance, said Skorka, 63, who is Rector of the Latin American Rabbinic Seminary. We come together without burying our identities. I spoke to him about evangelization, and he stated emphatically that the Catholic Church cannot engage in proselytism, he said.
We are not looking for a photo opportunity, but we want what we are doing to trigger a re-thinking about things. Ours is not a relation of tea and sympathy; that is not my way, and it is not Bergoglios way. We want to move ahead by actions, we must advance by building bridges, through a living dialogue; not a dialogue of words, but a dialogue of actions that reflect our commitment, he stated.
So much for "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit'!
More horrors at the link
Proselytism is different from evangelization. Proselytism is what Jehovah’s Witnesses do on your doorstep before you slam the door.
Evangelization, announcing the Gospel, is entirely different, and the Pope tells us we have to do that every day.
Are you saying that all Christians should hate Jews? Or just doing a little more Catholic bashing? What on earth is your point?
Evangelism (good) / proselytism (bad). These words have different meanings in Catholicism than elsewhere. Much like a cult is good in Catholic circles but bad elsewhere. Are you not aware of these facts that I present to you?
Consider Tolkien and Lewis. What Lewis did was Evangelize Tolkien. Neither of them proselytised each other, and they remained friends of different religious sects.
” I spoke to him about EVANGELIZATION, and he stated emphatically that the Catholic Church cannot engage in PROSELYTISM
Evangelization = Proselytism
“Are you saying that all Christians should hate Jews?”
So you’re okay with Jews going to hell since they do not believe in Jesus Christ? Who hates who here?
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>>Evangelization = Proselytism<<
I gotta go with this definition.
Where we go from there is an entirely different kettle of wombats...
So youre okay with Jews going to hell since they do not believe in Jesus Christ?
Your statement is drawing a distinction between words that does not exist everywhere yet. For most people, Evangelization and Proselytism are the exact same things. Saying that they are different is a modern attempt to change the meaning of an old word by putting a slightly new nuance on the word--A nuance which that word did not originally have. It's the same tactic that progressives use to alter the original meaning of the plain text of the constitution. (I don't mean that you are progressive yourself, but the progressives do love this logical tactic which is a form of equivocation.)
By the way the Merriam Webster dicitionary defines these words to mean essentially the exact same thing, that is to attempt to convert someone to one's religion:
pros·e·lyt·ize [pros-uh-li-tahyz] Show IPA verb (used with object), verb (used without object), pros·e·lyt·ized, pros·e·lyt·iz·ing. to convert or attempt to convert as a proselyte; recruit.
e·van·ge·lize [ih-van-juh-lahyz] Show IPA verb, e·van·ge·lized, e·van·ge·liz·ing. verb (used with object) 1. to preach the gospel to. 2. to convert to Christianity.
According to your definition, apparently Jesus hates Jews. Which doesn't sound right, does it?
“According to your definition, apparently Jesus hates Jews. Which doesn’t sound right, does it?”
And where, exactly, did you find THAT definition?
If you consult the Bible, you will find that God tells the Jews that His covenant with them is “forever.” And St. Paul repeats that in one of his epistles.
Yes, Jesus established a New Covenant. But God continues to keep the Old Covenant with the Jews. The Jews were offered the New Covenant, and many or most of them accepted it. But the Old Covenant will remain with those faithful Jews who have chosen to remain where they are.
Christianity fulfilled the promises made to Israel. It did not supersede them. Judaism still remains a religion to which God is faithful—so long as they are faithful to Him.
They are always welcome to come over to the New Covenant. But they are not damned for not doing so, so long as they are faithful to the Old Covenant. God repeatedly made that assurance in the Old Testament. “Forever” is forever. And St. Paul repeated that. Obviously Paul approved of conversion—he was converted himself. But he did not say that the Jews would all be damned if they remained faithful to the old Covenant.
I am watching this Pope’s actions very carefully.
He is either very right or very wrong. I am currently leaning towards the very right side of perspective, but the jury is still out.
By his fruits, we shall know him.
If saying that people who don’t believe in Christ as our Savior will go to Hell—including Jews—is “hate,” then Jesus Himself must hate Jews since He’s the One who laid out the rule of Salvation.
” But the Old Covenant will remain with those faithful Jews who have chosen to remain where they are.”
Not only is this horrific heresy, offensive and hateful to the Jews who will die in their sins because you move not a single finger for them, but it is offensive to the sight of God. The law was fulfilled on the cross by Christ, the only one who was able to fulfill it. Under the law, outside of Jesus Christ, there is no salvation.
Joh_5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
“Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
I speak definitively for all Jews when I say that we don’t care where others think we’re going for belief or non-belief in their religion(s.) We are nudniks. We don’t care. Go G-d!
“If saying that people who dont believe in Christ as our Savior will go to Hellincluding Jewsis hate, then Jesus Himself must hate Jews since Hes the One who laid out the rule of Salvation.”
You’ve misunderstood me. I accused the other fellow of hating the Jews (he accused me of hating them), since he did not want to convert them to Christianity. I am quite with you and Christ that there is no salvation outside of Him for anyone.
My sentence was probably just goofy. In context, it ought to make sense.
First, the remark about proselytism was from the "La Repubblica" interview, which, it turns out, has been discredited for significant fabrication. Insofar as direct quotations go, there was neither a recording made nor notes taken (a rather shocking breach of professional journalistic practices), and the interviewer (an 88-year-old atheist) admits it was "reconstructed from memory" http://tinyurl.com/PF-interview-inaccuracies
Second, even if Pope Francis had made a remark against proselytism (we don't know if he did or he didn't), that's not the same as being against evangelization.
Many countries (I'm not talking about Muslim, but EU and others as well) restrict or ban "proselytism," defined in their law codes as offering bribes for conversion (e.g. housing, employment, medical aid), the recruitment of children without their parents' knowledge or consent, or other unethical practices.
Understood in this way (legally), proselytism is a recognized fraudulent, abusive or manipulative behavior: it is the opposite of legitimate evangelism.
Source link. Please do not repeat this falsehood about Pope Francis..
“I speak definitively for all Jews when I say that we dont care where others think were going for belief or non-belief in their religion(s.)”
You should start caring. Daniel predicted the coming of the Messiah about 2,000 years ago, and your temple has been in ruins for just as long, even dominated by Muslims who hate you, according to his own prediction, and Christ’s as well.
Interesting/educational post/thread. Thanks to all.
“First, the remark about proselytism was from the “La Repubblica” interview”
This is a different interview, actually from a Rabbi discussing his conversation with the Pope. Furthermore, the La Repubblica interview was not discredited. The Vatican has not denied the statements against proselytism. Just you guys have. This is the third interview where Francis has made the same remarks.
At this point we have to acknowledge the pattern.
Ah, I didn’t catch that. My apologies.
No problemo, my fault for the faulty sentence.
Nobody is denying that Pope Francis spoke against proselytism. Of course he did. I do, too. Proselytism is unethical manipulation. The point is, proselytism is not evangelism.
A simple google search reveals the Pope is talking constantly about the duty to evangelize: to spread the Gosepl of Jesus Christ to all the world.
Those who don't know this are --- is it possible? --- people who don't know how to google? Or possibly people who don't care to know.
According to your definition, apparently Jesus hates Jews. Which doesn’t sound right, does it?
According to my studies Jesus was and IS a Jew..
as well as most of the apostles even the married one(Peter)..
Many roman catholics like to say the first Pope was a married Jew.. i.e. Peter(Cephas/Simon)...
Our not-caring will crush your puny “should care.” We don’t care-—just Jewish libs care. (deep down they also don’t care-—just that their connection to their inheritance from G-d, Torah and commandments, is covered over by ‘isms.’)
I emphatically don’t care. Our dogma trumps yours.
I DO CARE enough to post an article about dogma. (I do care that you enjoy it and learn more about why we don’t care—about your dogma... or don’t enjoy-—not that I don’t care about your enjoyment—I want you to be happy. Happy people are better people.)
We really really don’t care what Christians say about TaNaCh (Torah, Prophets, Writings—the canonized Jewish Bible)
The aforementioned dogma article:
No one comes to the Father except through Christ.
If you are not in relationship with the Father His wrath is upon you; you are damned.
Of course, I usually use a softer terminology but these are the underlying truths.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
As long as the spirit of proselytism existed in the East the monasteries furnished the Church with all its missionaries. The names of two have been inscribed by Rome in its calendar of annual feasts, namely, St. Cyril and St. Methodius, the Apostles of the Slavs.
You guys, and Pope Francis, need to study a little Church history, e.g. prior to VC II.
Here’s a few relevant Bible verses taken from Bible Gateway.
And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the Lord continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.
7.2 Samuel 23:5
Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.
8.1 Chronicles 16:17
And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Notice that none of these passages say that the everlasting covenant with the Jews will end when the Messiah comes.
Yes, correct, no one can come to the Father without the grace provided by Jesus; but that grace can be given to virtuous pagans and religious Jews without their conscious knowledge. And, yes, Jesus invited the Jews to join His Church; but He did not force anyone to do so, and he continues to extend His grace to those whom He chooses.
We see at the Transfiguration that several Old Testament figures are in Heaven, although they did not know Jesus in this life.
Obviously this is a complex matter, not to be settled in a few words. But it is simply wrong to put limits on what God can do to save those whom he chooses.
ref “Consider Tolkien and Lewis. What Lewis did was Evangelize Tolkien. Neither of them proselytised each other, and they remained friends of different religious sects.”
Tolkien and CS Lewis were good friends who shared a common bond in their literary/writing group. Both were great Christian writers of our times. Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic who helped Lewis find his way back from atheism to his Christian faith. Lewis happened to return to the faith he was raised in as a child, the Church of England (aka Catholic Lite). Nonetheless, a great win for Christianity and a great example of Evangelization through friendship and living one’s faith.
Christianity fulfilled the promises made to Israel. It did not supersede them. Judaism still remains a religion to which God is faithfulso long as they are faithful to Him.
The above statements are heresy.
“I emphatically dont care. Our dogma trumps yours.”
The lady doth protest too much, same with most atheists and other assorted unbelievers.
See #34 above.
“Nobody is denying that Pope Francis spoke against proselytism. Of course he did. I do, too. Proselytism is unethical manipulation.”
The Rabbi asked him about evangelization, to which Francis replied regarding proselytism. Obviously, as with most normal people, both words are seen as meaning exactly what they mean = the same thing.
Apparently the Pope thinks that evangelization is something where you don’t actually try to convert anyone, but rather “expand” the horizons and dialogue about how equal all religions are, and how we all have to strive towards the common “Good,” as seen in the previous interviews as well.
“Notice that none of these passages say that the everlasting covenant with the Jews will end when the Messiah comes.”
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The Old Covenant was fulfilled through Jesus Christ, who fulfilled all righteousness through His perfect life and, finally, His death on the cross, making reconciliation for many.
The Old Testament system of sacrifices (which Jews don’t do anyway) and all the other Old Testament laws do not save, and cannot save, since salvation is through Christ only.
You would know this, if you took the time to engage the scriptures I have already presented.
The Catholic Church is the New Israel; Outside of it, there is no salvation.
Do you think Jesus and his apostles made no attempt to convert the Jews?
I’m a man, man. (Not a lady.) And I’ll protest more:
I am tired of pussy-footing around gentiles. Who abrogates the word of G-d?! What’s up with that? So you have an ‘Old’ Testament... (not that it applies to you other than these seven commandments: http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62221/jewish/Universal-Morality.htm)
But for the “you Jews better believe....” ilk, let me give you a bit of Jewish “you better believe.” Jews believe gentiles who don’t follow the seven Noahide laws will simply not exist after the Messiah comes. Cool ey? We care so little that you won’t even be damned-—just not existent at all. Want more? If you do follow them or want to, you’ll be chasing after Jews holding on to their ‘tzitzis’ (garment worn over or under the shirt with four ‘tassels’ at each corner) begging to be taught. See? We wear them for a reason.
I feign excitement and I try for humor. (can you tell?)
NOW.... who is an annuity guru....studying for my FL insurance exam (on a much lighter note, besides it’s necessity for eventual death.)
You are right, I had it backwards.
Thanks for the correction.
What do you think about the traditional Good Friday prayer for the Jews?
“But for the you Jews better believe.... ilk, let me give you a bit of Jewish you better believe. Jews believe gentiles who dont follow the seven Noahide laws will simply not exist after the Messiah comes. Cool ey?”
Who cares what you believe? I’ll stick with the scripture:
“Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
Good luck with your practical life lessons from your self-interpreted, thrice-translated (from the original) bit o’ scripture.
“Good luck with your practical life lessons from your self-interpreted, thrice-translated (from the original) bit o scripture.”
Good luck with your indifferent religion waiting for another Messiah who’s only overdue by about 2,000 years. Guess he’s indifferent too.
Indifferent to those who don’t have a tradition stemming from G-d and Moses. But you do, you do...