Posted on 10/08/2013 7:21:16 AM PDT by Gamecock
How does Canon 6 of Orange differ from Canon 3 of Trent?
***CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema. ***
Of course grace is a prerequisite! It’s always a prerequisite. That’s not where we disagree with Calvin. Where we (and Augustine) disagree is that free will is not therefore annihilated.
Soteriology is not my strong point. Dumb it down nice and good for me.
The priestly duty of intercession:
“Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:25).
Orange: Soverign Grace.
Trent: Semi-Pelagian
“If the sacrifice is finished, isn’t Christ’s priesthood finished?”
No, why would it be? This is just a conclusion drawn from fallacious thinking. Let me lay out your argument and try to highlight the error:
A) A priesthood must make offerings in order to be valid.
B) Christ has His own priesthood.
C) If Christ’s priesthood is valid, they must make offerings.
D) The offering of Christ’s priesthood must be Christ’s sacrifice.
E) Christ’s sacrifice must never be finished, or His priesthood would become invalid.
First, you assume A without establishing it, but let’s assume that is a correct premise, just for expediency. The main error is in premise D, since you assume that the offering is Christ’s sacrifice, without actually establishing it. Without establishing that, your conclusion E is unsupported.
You are saying that you have nothing to learn from a man who was a disciple of Saint John.
I do not lean on the writings of man. Rabbinism esteems the Talmud I seek the face of YHvH in His WORD.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
(writing of man) above the Torah.
Trent is not semi-Pelagianism. It does not say the human will cooperates in it’s own salvation, but prepares the path. The salvation is still totally up to God. The person can cooperate to prepare the path, and still not end up being saved. It is logically necessary, since salvation could be refused, which we know to be true. If salvation were irresitable, then we are only meat puppets - machines. If so, then salvation has lost its value. Salvation only has value if the one saved has a free will to reject it.
I never said Christianity wasn’t at the top of the list. I said that arguing over which brand is better is not at the top of the list. Your bickering about Protestantism vs. Catholicism while all these things are happening is like the Senate debating and holding a vote over Pepsi vs. Coke. If somebody decides to convert from one to the other is is not because of the petty comments made on FR, scriptural quotes or not.
Is not the basis of all forms of Christianity the following:
Man is with sin
Jesus Christ, the Son of God and saviour, was crucified, died, and was resurrected
Through this sacrifice man’s sins are forgiven
Faith in this lends man eternal life
I know it’s more complex and complicated than that after all who are we to be able to understand the Maker. Still we get caught in the details and trivials when in essence we just need to trust in Him... with each other
“I never said Christianity wasn’t at the top of the list. I said that arguing over which brand is better is not at the top of the list.”
Oh yes, I realize that. However, what you see as “bickering”, others may see as essential matters of faith. Just because such things are not important to YOU, does not make them unimportant.
“If somebody decides to convert from one to the other is is not because of the petty comments made on FR, scriptural quotes or not.”
Well, actually, that’s not an accurate assessment. Quite a few people have changed their religious beliefs, over the years, precisely because of the discussions we have on the Religion Forum.
There's no point in an *unbloody* sacrifice.
Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
A sacrifice without the blood ineffectual. It can't and won't take away sin.
Romans 14:1-12 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
He is now interceding for us before the Father, as a priest.
Hebrews 9:24-26 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Romans 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
There is no free will when we are born slaves to sin.
The Holy Spirit needs to do a work in us to bring us to a place where we can make that decision to follow Christ.
How can you reference Ignatius when his alleged writings are known forgeries???
You bend it any more, it's going to break...
So you don't really believe 'once' for ALL...
When the civil war was fought, it was fought til one side won...They don't have to keep fighting the war every day to get the same results...It's done...It's over...
Jesus isn't living a 'Ground Hog Day'...
The Sacrifice was given 'once'...For all time, for all people...
An eternal priesthood means an eternal offering...
You are making that up...
Because that's what a "priest" does, is it? Intercede?
And he intercedes...according to the order of Melchizedek?
Semipelagianism taught that man can make the first move toward God without grace, and then grace takes over the rest. Augustine and Orange teach that no, even the *initial* conversion must be preceded by grace. Trent taught exactly the same thing:
The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God
What is Christ’s priesthood, then?
And remember before you answer: Romans doesn’t just say he has a priesthood...he has a priesthood *of the order of Melchizedek*.
EXACTLY. But HOW is he offering? HOW is he interceding? "Thou art a priest forever...according to the order of Melchizedek".
You practically have to go out of your way to not see it.
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