Posted on 11/21/2013 11:02:12 AM PST by redleghunter
Paul calls for an examination in another passage and I want you to notice this. It's the last chapter of II Corinthians, Chapter 13, and verse 5, I want you to note what it says, Il Corinthians 13:5, just the first sentence, "'Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; (prove it, is what he's saying) prove yourselves." You say to someone "are you a Christian?" 'Yes.' What do you base that on? 'Well so many years ago I made a decision.' That means nothing. The Bible never verifies anybodies salvation on the basis of the past, It's always on the basis of the present, And if you don't have the evident proof of real salvation in your life now, there's a very real possibility you're not a Christian at all, no matter what happened in the past. So examine yourself, to se whether you are in the faith prove yourself. You say John' how do do that? How do I know if I'm really a Christian? I believe! (Maybe you've even been baptized.) I go to church, I, think I'm a Christian.' Look with me Matthew Chapter 5 and let's find out. When Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews had already decided what right-living was all about. They had already built their own code. They had already developed their own system, and they had it pretty cu and dried and pretty well laid out that this is what it was to be holy, and it was all external, it was all self-righteousness and works, and Jesus came and shattered that thing and He said I want to give you a new standard for living.
(Excerpt) Read more at gty.org ...
Repent means EXACTLY that: change your mind. Just like gospel means “good news”. Thank you for your longsuffering and doctrine, CB. It’s most appreciated.
Whoa there. Before you demand an answer to that I think since you are the one who is trying to “correct” smvoice here that you should inform us all of whom you healed lately. When was the last time you cast out a devil or spoke in tongues? You do “believe” don’t you? Aren’t you the one claiming that if you “believe” those signs shall follow? If you believe that and haven’t healed anyone, cast out any devils or suddenly spoke in tongues are we to understand that you don’t “believe”?
Wooops! You may want to rethink that one.
Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
I’m not so sure that means what you think it means.
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Jesus was talking there to the Pharisees who were being hypocrites in teaching to do what they didn’t do themselves. Israel was not set aside at that point because it was later that Jesus said to go to the Jews first and not yet to the Gentiles.
But see my previous post. Peter and those who were with him were SHOCKED that they were “saved” and received the Holy Spirit after only “believing”. It was obvious that Peter and those with him expected there was more to be done before that would happen. It would appear that the experience Peter had with those at the house of Cornelius is what illustrated the difference and what prompted him to speak at the council in Jerusalem.
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Who had taught those “certain men”? It couldn’t have been Paul since it was he who had the “dissension” with. It had to have been from the other 12. Unless you know of someone other than they who were preaching the gospel of Jesus. Regardless of whether that teaching had “crept in” from someone else it’s clear to me that the 12 didn’t teach particularly against it but Paul did or he wouldn’t have had the “dissention”.
The dispute during the council at Jerusalem was among the apostles and Peter as well. If all the apostles had been teaching the same thing as Paul there would have been no dispute or the apostles and Paul would simply have said something like “that’s not what we have been teaching you guys” and the issue would have been over. James had to stand and make a declaration which finally put them all on the same page.
I’ll simply refer back to my post on the meaning of repent.
>>Another no one has touched is why are Jesus’ words and commands in Luke 24 seem to be side stepped by the apostles that He had to start another dispensation?<<
I’m sure you mean this verse.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
First the “repentance”. A change of mind was needed for those who understood the Jewish “ways” just as I showed in my post on the meaning of “repent”.
Second is the “remission of sin”. The Greek word for sin is hamartia or “missing the mark”. What mark as far as serving God did the Gentiles have since they didn’t serve God in the first place other than to simply “believe” in God?
Now, once the Gentiles believed they had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which was then their guide as to what the “mark” was so they didn’t need the law or the “rules” like the Jews had been living with prior to that.
Of course the Gentiles and we as well now can “miss the mark” but we have the assurance that our sins have been remitted by the shed blood of Christ. Not that we intentionally sin as I believe that would be “grieving the Holy Spirit” who is our continence if you will and we would be blatantly disobeying what the Holy Spirit is telling us.
All of the mysteries are layed out pretty good in the scriptures...Shouldn't be any questions about those...
It's clear (to me) that when the church was started it was aimed at the Jews who were law compliant...Lots of things were unclean, even other people...
It was revealed in Acts 10 that a change was taking place to make things clean and lawful and ultimately remove people from the burden of the law...
This didn't happen with a bang...It was a gradual process...
To try to pinpoint the date or specific scripture when this change came in with a bang is impossible...It didn't happen that way...But I think we can all see that it happened...
Acts 10 surely shows the shock to Peter and those with him when Cornelius and those with him received the Holy Spirit only after believing. Peter obviously thought more was needed before that would happen.
They all started out in the church following all the laws...And there wasn't a clear statement on revoking the law until Romans 3...
Error had crept in the Jerusalem church as they incorporated more Jews especially some Pharisees. Some may have been practicing some of the old ways but none of he apostles were preaching them as a way to salvation or a requirement.
I don't think it was error...Bible says it was fear...Seems as Peter was well outnumbered by the Jewish Christians and he lacked the courage to stand up to them to tell them the truth...He was in great fear...And Barnabas became gripped with the same fear...
That was excellent. Thanks for that.
But what was that same way???
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Appears to me that Peter was teaching to salvation by works...
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Those certain were likely Peter who was still teaching that good works were required for salvation as he did in Acts 10...
The "mystery" we all seem to be hanging on was not such a mystery at all to those after the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
I don't believe that is the mystery in question...
It WAS fear..remember when Peter was given the vision to go to Cornelius? “But Peter REHEARSED the matter from the beginning..” (Acts 11:4), and also Acts(11:17): “Forasmuch then as GOd gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ: what was I, that I could withstand God?”
I apologize if the word I used, “wiredrawn,” was misunderstood. I used it like C. S. Lewis used it. It has nothing to do with schematics. It is analogous to the process used literally to draw wire, by forcing ever smaller rods of malleable metal through tapered dies.
I hope the thrust in the discussion here will be grace in the sense of “give an answer for the hope that is in you.” There’s a big God out there, wherever we go. He is inescapable. If we are sincere about letting God guide us out of the sad condition we are now in (whether or not we know all about it, and we don’t yet) to the condition He wants us to be in, then God will do His part too. In a sense, WE will be “wiredrawn.” It is all backed by ironclad promise. How good the results are, factors in our own obedience. Some people spend years and years in academic worries and doubts about the promise and play spiritual rope-a-dope. Others accept the promise and follow and are straightened and refined. I was one of the former, now I am one of the latter.
Just as Christ did not give Paul a SINGLE vision and revelation, but a series of visions and revelations:
"It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord." (2 Cor. 12:1).
Ah, this dives into the middle of a whole ‘nother controversy.
It would be well to look for broad, overarching premises that make sense. Then that will put the details into their proper place.
I’ve seen so many preachers fall into worldly modes of expounding gospel and bible. That fails to directly edify, though in God’s economy where nothing is entirely wasted, it can prove part of a trial that will help educate a soul. By means of following wrong paths for a limited time and seeing the consequences, a soul will be educated to seek right paths instead, as God also fills that soul with more and more courage and love.
It’s possible to fall out of a walk in the short view and still not be out of the overall march in the long view. And the less time that the person who fell spends worrying about what a burden his fall put upon his status as a believer, the quicker that person will recover. Satan may seem ferocious to us, but he is a paper tiger in God’s eyes. God will even turn Satan’s works to our good. It is given to us a range of choice as to how slow or quickly to respond to the Lord.
Did that all make sense to you? It sure spoke volumes to me. I don’t know when the word “repent” came to mean “turn from sin” or “be sorry for sin” because it’s not what they meant back then.
The Jews (Hebrews) of the time of the Gospels and Acts fully understood what belief and faith meant. They knew of Abraham in Genesis quite well and called him their "father" when they debated with Jesus Christ. So this is the understanding of a Jew at the time on faith and belief:
Genesis 15:
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
We see the same verse quoted in several places in the NT as well. The Jews understood that. The Israelites of the OT knew belief and faith in God and what it meant quite well. Upon the Exodus Yahweh showed them signs and wonders to include Him directly delivering them from death and bondage. They saw it first hand and they believed. So they fully understood faith and belief.
Your point was that Gentiles did not have to repent, change their minds but just believe. That is not what the Scriptures tells us OT and NT:
Jeremiah 25:
sent to you all His servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, but you have not listened nor inclined your ear to hear. 5 They said, ‘Repent now everyone of his evil way and his evil doings, and dwell in the land that the Lord has given to you and your fathers forever and ever. 6 Do not go after other gods to serve them and worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands; and I will not harm you.’
Zechariah 1:
2 “The Lord has been very angry with your fathers. 3 Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Return to Me,” says the Lord of hosts, “and I will return to you,” says the Lord of hosts. 4 “Do not be like your fathers, to whom the former prophets preached, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Turn now from your evil ways and your evil deeds.”’ But they did not hear nor heed Me,” says the Lord.
And in Ezekiel 33 there is this:
10 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: ‘Thus you say, “If our transgressions and our sins lie upon us, and we pine away in them, how can we then live?”’ 11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’
Then here is Ezekiel 18:
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
So for the Jews of the 1st century ministry of Jesus Christ and early church, a "turning from" a "change of mind" a "repenting" was directly and clearly linked to sin, transgressions against God and wickedness.
By your comments above you state the Gentiles did not have to "repent" "change their minds" "turn from" because they were not under the Law. You linked the Jew's disbelief in God as what they needed to "change their minds." However, the Gentiles did not believe the One True God at all. They did not know Jesus Christ. So they would have to change their minds and therefore believe. So we see in the NT all must repent Jew and Greek (Gentile)
This is what the NT says about repentance:
Luke 24: “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
Here in Acts 11 where Peter recounts the Acts 10 Cornelius conversion:
13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
So Cornelius and his household, Gentiles no less, recieved, were granted the same "repentance to life." Another term for the same Gosple Jesus gives in Luke 24 (as posted above).
Then here in Acts 17 we have Paul addressing a Gentile Greek pure audience at the Areopagus saying this about repenting:
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Clearly Gentiles, clearly told God "commands all men everywhere to repent."
Then Paul again in Acts 20:
17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. 18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; 20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Then again Paul in Acts 26 discusses his earthly ministry and says that he was obedient to his Heavenly vision which included this:
19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
There is quite a flow from the OT to this very point in Acts. Today we would call that a definite trend. However it continues here are some more:
Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
2 Corinthians 7:9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
2 Corinthians 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.
2 Timothy 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God
Hebrews 6:6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Revelation 2:5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Revelation 2:16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Revelation 2:21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.
Revelation 2:22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.
Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Revelation 9:21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Revelation 16:9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.
Absolutely no where do we see unrepentant hearts are saved. No where, anywhere in all of the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. It is God's calling and His Grace that leads the sinner to repentance.
This is intrinsically important to this conversation. I would submit that covenants are delivered by a single individual, and are not subject to change or amendment thereafter by secondary agents. The disciples who came after Moses did not have authority to change Moses. They had authority to handle things within Moses, but did not have any authority to add to or take away from... To include Yeshua, regardless of His stature. It is the signature of YHWH that what He said will not change, and will not return to Him empty. This includes all agents - judges, prophets, etc. in order that the original words are not clouded and made null.
The very same thing has to apply to Yeshua's message as well, if for no other reason than continuity's sake - The disciple cannot change what the Teacher taught, or the teacher is made to be wrong... A precept that the super-secret decoder-ring crowd rarely take into account. For the purpose of interpretation then, the words written in red must needfully carry primary authority. While the words of Paul or Peter or John are truly inspired, their words must needfully be passed through the filter of their Master's words, because like the Torah, the Master's words are forever.
Diminishing those on the other side of the discourse does not usually result in edifying them, it doesn't matter how right you are otherwise.
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