Posted on 04/24/2014 1:48:53 PM PDT by NYer
If a man hears my words, and does not keep true to them, I do not pass sentence on him; I have come to save the world, not to pass sentence on the world. 48 The man who makes me of no account, and does not accept my words, has a judge appointed to try him; it is the message I have uttered that will be his judge at the last day. 49 And this, because it is not on my own authority that I have spoken; it was my Father, who sent me, that commanded me what words I was to say, what message I was to utter. 50 And I know well that what he commands is eternal life; everything then, which I utter, I utter as my Father has bidden me.
I wish you well on your journey to reach Heaven, but I don’t accept your misrepresentations about the Catholic Church.
All our RIGHTEOUSNESS is as filthy rags to God.
There's NOTHING we can do to earn our way to heaven.
God's standard for reaching heaven is perfection. Nobody has or is even capable of attaining that. Even if someone sinned only one sin in their entire lives and the rest of their life was perfect, it still wouldn't be enough.
We are not saved until we become lost. We are lost until we become saved.
John 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
If you think I'm misrepresenting the church, then tell me what you think I'm misrepresenting. Don't just throw unfounded accusations out there hoping they're going to stick.
And by what set of criteria do you use to determine whether a version of scripture is legitimate? What authority do you appeal?
Using the entire biblical passage of Isaiah 64:6 is instructive for context. The prophet was lamenting the sinfulness of the Kingdom of Judah and stating that even their or “our” righteous works were void because of their state of sinfulness. This was not a condemnation of righteous works in and of themselves.
The strawman here is the misrepresentation that Catholics believe that it is our own works that save us. Not so. The righteous works are God’s works that flow through us as a grace resulting from our Faith. It is our duty to cooperate with God’s will. Faith + works = Salvation.
There’s the misrepresentation.
They are the “rules” teachings of the Catholic Church, the Church established by Jesus Christ and follow the teachings of Jesus.
There is no barrier between God and the Body of Christ (the Church) as he left us with the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist where we receive HIS body and blood at Mass. The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is literally and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists frequently attack this doctrine as “unbiblical,” but the Bible is forthright in declaring it (cf. 1 Cor. 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32–71).
You seem to assert that you know better than the Catholic Church the teachings of Jesus, and that you can judge those teachings.
If you love Catholics and a few Popes, why do you need to critize the teachings of the Church?
Your comment: There’s NOTHING we can do to earn our way to heaven.
Salvation begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will.
Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God’s justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ’s sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.
This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God’s grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified. From the Catholic Ency
The passage was from John 12. Would you like the same passage in Latin or Greek?
You speak about the Pharisees and imply they are the Catholic Church, but you seem to lack the understanding that Jesus spoke of.
“You set yourselves up to judge, after your earthly fashion; I do not set myself up to judge anybody. 16 And what if I should judge? My judgement is judgement indeed; it is not I alone, my Father who sent me is with me.”
Succinct, simple, and well stated; Your comments are in accordance with:
If I may, I think the point NYer was making was that the letter (of St. John) was written to address a heresy taught by other men.
This is the context of “But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you” (1 John 2:27).” No one is saying that the Holy Spirit “can’t” directly teach truth.
We aren’t to listen to the inventions of Man. (what Man teaches from his own mind, his own invention). We are to listen to and obey what God instructs. This knowledge is transmitted (not invented by, but transmitted by) the Church, who is given Her knowledge by God.
One point not given due consideration is, that eventually, someone is going to be sharing, at least what they think is the “truth” with other people. Either someone who’s read the Bible on their own “with the help of the Holy Spirit” or the Church.
So we have a choice to make, all of us, do we listen to that voice in our head, hoping it’s not the Devil deceiving us, hoping we can prove to ourselves it’s not the Devil by reading more Scripture alone, or do we ask for help when needed, and have enough humility to say, “I don’t agree with what you’re saying, but I can’t find an objective reason to disagree”.
This is what we’re all called to do, really, to empty ourselves of our own spirit so that the Holy Spirit can find room to teach us as He normally wills, which is through other people. Other people who are witnesses for Christ in their own life, who show us by their example how it’s possible to live this way.
The great commission has no meaning, if all we’re supposed to do is go around telling people to “read the Bible”. That’s not evangelization, that’s not sharing a personal testimony. That’s not being a witness. That’s not the method of Christianity. The method hasn’t changed since Jesus was here. The method is to be a witness of Christ’s power in your own life. Your OWN life. Not a Scriptural scholar. (If our salvation is based on how well we know the written Word of God, then we’re ALL destined for Hell with no hope. Because surely, Satan knows the Bible better than you, me, NYer, and even the Pope.)
Otherwise the term “witness for Christ” has no meaning. Scripture itself is just a collection of dead letters if Christianity isn’t first and foremost a present event in one’s own life to be shared with other people, taught to other people in the present day.
Taught by authority given only by God. An authority recognizable because it can only have come from Another, and not by Man’s effort. This is so recognizable because such authority would not have lasted for 2,000 years if it were based on Man’s invention. Surely the history of the Church, replete with all the “bad Popes” and ensuing scandals proves this divine protection.
The Bible authorizes no one to forbid another from taking communion. Think we've been over this.
In John 5:39, Jesus said, "search the scriptures."
Acts 17:11 says, "they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
2 Tim 2:15 says "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
You seem to have more fear of the devil than faith in the Lord. Believe his Word, the Bible, and focus on that. The Holy Spirit will give you peace (Colossians 3:15) and will never go against the Bible.
The Holy Spirit (not man) will lead you into all truth. "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (John 16:13).
No where does scripture instruct you to put man in place of your own study of Scripture or the anointing and teaching of the Holy Spirit. Instead, God has given you His Word, the Bible to study and the anointing of the Holy Spirit to teach you as I've already referenced. Scripture authorizes no man or organization to replace your own relationship with God or your study of his Word.
Bottom line: the Bible does not authorize anyone to forbid another communion.
Mt 16:15-19
He (Jesus) said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.
That is a very clear authorization to Peter and his successors (the Roman Catholic Church).
You seem to ignore the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church and only want to make misleading statements.
The late Archbishop Fulton Sheen once said, “There are not even 100 people in this country who hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they think the Catholic Church to be.”
Keep in mind that the Catholic Church has been around for 2,000 years. Over the years, there have been an untold number of questions and objections raised about her teachings and practices. The answers are there. It’s worth your time to find them. (The Bible made me do it)
That Holy Communion may be received not only validly, but also fruitfully, certain dispositions both of body and of soul are required...The principal disposition of soul required is freedom from at least mortal sin and ecclesiastical censure. For those in a state of grievous sin confession is necessary. This is the proving oneself referred to by St. Paul (1 Corinthians 11:28). The only case in which one in grievous sin might dispense with confession and rest in content with perfect contrition, or perfect charity is when on one hand confession here and now is morally speaking impossible, and where, on the other a real necessity of communication exists.
Sacred Scripture is very important, but not the only tool in teaching us how to follow Jesus and do the will of GOD.
You have stated that you are not a practicing Catholic, why do you feel it is necessary for you to refute the teachings of the Catholic Church?
I hope that you will keep seeking answers. Like many things in life, it takes hard work and real effort to reach our goal of salvation and eternal life with GOD. I hope that you have the opportunity to receive the real presence of HIS BODY AND BLOOD in the Eucharist at a Catholic church as member of the Body of Christ.
As Jesus greeted the Apostles in today’s Gospel, PEACE BE WITH YOU.
Your posting:
But faith does not encompass all that is required for salvation.
Jesus thought so.
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
You may also want to read John 8:10-11 where he saved the woman who was going to be stoned.
Perhaps you should understand that Jesus also said “Go, [and] from now on do not sin any more.”
Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”d 11She replied, “No one, sir.” Then Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you. Go, [and] from now on do not sin any more.”]John 8:10-11
There will still be a judgement day. So we all have reponsibility to follow God’s will.
Certainly not blank-check authorization that Peter & his successors were infallible or allowed to add or subtract from the canon of Scripture which Scripture itself condemns. No man, including Peter, the Pope, or a group of men called “the Catholic Church” is infallible. An example is just after the exchange you cite, when Jesus rebuked Peter (Mat 16:23). There was more correction for Peter later. In fact Peter was one of the most corrected of all the apostles.
Again, no church or organization is infallible because it is made up of fallible men. The second and third chapters of Revelation show Jesus loving but correcting the seven churches (the Catholic Church is in there). Jesus never counseled to blindly follow man, but he did say the Pharisees are “blind leaders of the blind” (Mat 15:14). Jesus counseled, rather than to blindly follow man, instead to beware of the Pharisees and the deceptions of man (Mat 10:17, 24:4; Mark 8:15, 13:5).
the Catholic Church has been around for 2,000 years
Organizational longevity doesn’t give any special extra-Scriptural authorization nor change the Scriptural warnings against such. The priesthood and Pharisees of the Jews were also of long duration, well-established in Israel, yet they were Jesus’ greatest enemies and the instigators of his crucifixion. Jesus said about them, “teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Mat 15:9). Later, Jesus said, “they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders” (Mat 23:4). This is my complaint about this Church ordinance regarding forbidding communion – it is a doctrine of man and grievous, not a Biblical doctrine. 1 Cor 11:28 is an instruction about communion, but gives no one power to forbid taking communion.
Sacred Scripture is very important, but not the only tool in teaching us how to follow Jesus and do the will of GOD.
Be very careful there. Yes, there are many teaching tools, but nothing of God that takes away or adds to Scripture. God’s ultimate authority is the Bible, not man. God’s ultimate authority is a rule of law, not a rule of man. There is a double curse pronounced on anyone preaching any other gospel (Gal 1:8-9). In its last warning, Scripture warns, “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book” (Rev 22:18-19).
I can see that your mind is made up and not willing to accept the reason, logic, faith and teachings of the Catholic Church, but I caution you not to make false statments about the teachings of the Catholic Church (for your sake).
St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: “a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas”. “The right Christian faith consists in giving one’s voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ’s doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness—free choice—is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one’s own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of “freely willed”.
I hope you continue to seek and find the TRUTH.
PAX VOBISCUM
Heresy is what Jesus said it is: “teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Mat 15:9). The doctrine of forbidding communion is heresy. I care not for the warnings from man's authority, but I hope you heed the warnings from God's authority in Scripture, previously cited for your convenience and, hopefully, study.
Faith = salvation.
Works follow as a result, but not for the saving of the soul.
Lot was considered righteous. Tell me what good works of HIS you read about.
Tell me what the thief on the cross did.
Sure we are to go and sin no more. But if we do, that does not affect the salvation we receive by grace through faith.
There is no logic or reason to the Catholic church's teachings that are outside Scripture, nor is there any Scriptural support for them.
Therefore, as Christian, we are obligated to warn people when we see false teaching passed off as truth.
Your threats will not intimidate anyone into silence.
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Well, metmom, the good, penitent thief on the cross did a number of things. (None of those things saved him, of course -- his salvation came from the salvific work of God on the cross next to him.) However, his brief, nascent faith life on his own cross was by no means a dead faith, as his faith was definitely coupled with works.
For example, while hanging on his cross, the good thief preached one of the shortest but most poignant, memorable, public sermons ever preached -- one that the Holy Spirit obviously saw worthy of inclusion in the Holy Scriptures, and which has been endlessly repeated (especially during Holy Week) and heard by millions of people over the centuries (including you metmom) -- even more people than the number of people who have heard Billy Graham's sermons over the years -- when he said this brief sermon to his fellow thief on the other cross in his eloquent defense of Jesus:
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And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, "If thou be Christ, save thyself and us".
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, "Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?"
"And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss."
And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom".
Luke 23:39-42
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A careful reading of his words will show that within that same brief sermon, the good thief also confessed his own guilt to the Lord, and composed the "lyrics" to this very famous Christian chant/hymn:
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"Jesus Remember Me"
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My final point this evening will be that it is much better to approach fellow Christians with kindness and Christian compassion, rather than with a spirit of vitriolic bitterness and vituperous anti-Catholic rancor.
One has to acknowledge their need for God.
Scripture, however, is replete with examples of people who were saved by faith and Scripture says so.
If you want to call that a work, in order to justify doing other works, have at it.
But that is not a work as the rest of what people demand we do. And if you are then depending on those works to be made righteous before God, it isn't happening because righteousness is imputed to the believer upon confession, not earned by the believer by doing works the rest of his life.
Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Galatians 2:15-21 15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Catholics as a whole, seem to singularly not get that works don't count toward our salvation in any way. The reason? So that no man can boast before God.
And I've read and heard plenty of Catholics boasting about all the works they do and condemning others for not doing them. I've been the target of it myself so I do know what I'm taking about.
Yet Scripture says that all our RIGHTEOUSNESS is like filthy rags before God. We cannot do good enough works to satisfy God and those works do not erase sin because without the shedding of blood, there is NO forgiveness.
The only way to have the slate wiped clean is through being forgiven.
your comment: Catholics as a whole, seem to singularly not get that works don’t count toward our salvation in any way. The reason? So that no man can boast before God.
How do you know so much? Is it possible that you are not as informed as you could be?
As Catholics, we get help with God’s grace and turn away from sin, and try to follow the path of Jesus by loving Him and our neighbors and by doing good and just actions. We should all try to serve others so that we become closer to God. Do we all suceed? No, we are sinners and we are thankful for God’s mercy.
Work is generally good, whether for our job, our family, our church or our neighbor. If we don’t work, we get lazy and that can be sinful. Working can also be charitable and beneficial to society and is a way of showing Christian values.
Having Faith in God is more than saying so or reading the Bible. Having Faith is learning to love God and be a just person.
It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will.
Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God’s justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ’s sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.
This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God’s grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.
2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God’s gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
2028 “All Christians... are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity” (LG 40 § 2). “Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none” (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.: PG 44, 300D).
Feel free to read the Catholic Catechism for more information on what we believe.
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire: (1742, 2550)
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