Posted on 04/24/2014 1:48:53 PM PDT by NYer
Paul already clarified it in the scriptures and it is not eating flesh and drinking blood...Most Catholics know that as well...
Which is exactly why non-Catholic groups have accepted every single anti-Christian behavior that secular society has made popular ever since 1930.
Think about it, people who "the Spirit" doesn't lead to understanding what Jude was talking about when he warned against the heresy of Core aren't being led by the Spirit they think they're led by.
You need to read that passage in its entire context by adding verse 10: “For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Yes we are saved by God’s grace through our faith which leads to our baptism. But faith does not encompass all that is required for salvation. Baptism is required.
Matthew 16:18-19 does not expressly give anyone authority to prevent one from communion. It's a statement that "upon this rock will I build my church." It is not a blank check to any man.
1 Corinthians 11:27 warns believers but does not expressly forbid believers from taking communion.
Don't want to keep on this I don't think because the basic Catholic tenants of those two verses, misinterpreted IMO, has been debated for centuries. Nevertheless, even if you grant the Catholic version of Mat 16:18-19, that does not necessarily presume all acts by the Pope are of God nor justify unscriptural acts.
My thoughts, but we'll never solve that part of things here. However, I hope I've helped someone who may be watching.
You’re welcome. No we probably won’t solve anything here tonight but it is good we discuss. For the benefit of the lurkers. I was one of them until recently.
Peace be with you.
I quoted scriptures verbatim. If you’re not Catholic why do you care about the Eucharist? Protestants don’t believe in the Real Presence. They drink grape koolaid and eat a saltine cracker a couple of times a year.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
Yes. It is profitable, useful.
What it doesn’t say is Holy Scripture is the sole rule of faith. Sola scriptura is not in scripture.
Which is to be expected. How can the Word be reduced to words?
Jesus thought so.
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Mocking God never ends well.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
God tells us that we need the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture. It's in the Bible, the book that the Catholic church claims to have written.
You're in trouble either way with your mocking. Either you're mocking God or you're mocking the Catholic church.
So which one are you mocking?
When I was a prot it was Welch's grape juice and oyster crackers.
Or another possibility.. you're not God.
Thanks JP and God bless you.
You probably know this, but Welch invented grape juice for the purpose of having ‘fruit of the vine’ without wine - for protestants.
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If taking communion unworthily is harmful for a person (as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11), the loving and caring thing for anyone to do is to try to stop that person from harming themselves.
The Bible doesn't tell us to try to stop heroin addicts from shooting up, either, or to try to stop a person who is obviously drunk from climbing into their car and driving off, or to try to stop a person who is mentally ill or disturbed from jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, but that does not mean that a loving, caring person (including a pastor) should not try to stop those harmful things, from happening, just because they don't perceive those exact word formulations in the Bible.
Now (in reality) the truth is that if someone insists on taking communion in an unworthy manner, they will most likely be able to do that anywhere they go, as no priest or Eucharistic minister can possibly know if a person has totally turned away from their sins and sinful life, and have taken the right steps and have properly received the Sacrament of Confession/Reconciliation prior to coming to Mass, making them eligible to receive communion in a worthy manner. However, if a person insists on harming himself/herself, they will most likely be able to do that for the time being, but it is a very foolish choice to make.
Read just a bit further in that letter to the Corinthians:
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For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1 Corinthians 11:29
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If the concept of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit being necessary for understanding Scripture is being mocked, the person is mocking the source of that statement.
Either God inspired Scripture or He did not. If He did, He is being mocked.
If the Catholic church gave us Scripture, then it is being mocked for making that statement.
It’s a lose/lose situation for a Catholic to be in. They can’t not offend someone and put their soul in jeopardy.
The disagreement is not with God or His Word. It is with you.
If you think disagreeing with you is disagreeing with either.. then you think you’re God.
Sorry, but no.
Yes...
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world (1 Cor 11:32).
God does not condemn his children, he chastens them and loves them as a Father.
However, your emphasis is on the wrong syllAble. You take out of context the correction Paul was administering to the wayward and carnal Corinthian church. The issue with the Corinthians was when taking communion they were not discerning the Lord's body. What does that mean? It means discerning what Jesus told us to discern when
[H]he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me (Luke 22:19).
The Corinthians were using the communion for drunken feasts, not discerning or remembering the fact the Lord's body was broken for us so that we might know his wholeness.
Jesus never communion to be a time of self-flagellation and condemnation. It is meant to be a beautiful and wonderful time of remembering what he did for us and the power of his broken body in our lives. Else, what's the point?
Logic error here. jjotto is implying the voice is not really the Holy Spirit. Indeed, Catholics believe you need the Holy Spirit to interpret Scripture. The question is how does the Spirit do this?
In the Catholic Church, the Spirit is present when the bishops act in concert. “Where two or three are gathered...” I’m sure you know the rest. That is how the Church claims authority to interpret Scripture. When they are in the councils, the Holy Spirit is the authorizing agent for the pronouncements of the council. Yes, this includes things not directly referenced in the Bible. For a Catholic to deny what comes out of a council is functionally equivalent to denying God. In the past this was covered by anathemas directed against whatever heresy with which the council was concerned.
The Holy Spirit may contact a person directly, but it would be very difficult to prove. Good luck to whoever tries that, especially if the claimant shows a lack of charity and humility.
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