Pope Francis incenses the altar during Mass in the Upper Room on May 26, 2014. Credit: EWTN.
Posted on 05/26/2014 12:21:12 PM PDT by NYer
.- At the conclusion of his pilgrimage to the Holy Land, Pope Francis focused his homily at Mass on the significance of the Upper Room, held to be the site of the descent of the Holy Spirit upon Jesus' apostles.
“It is a great gift that the Lord has given us by bringing us together here in the Upper Room for the celebration of the Eucharist,” said Pope Francis on May 26 in Jerusalem.
“Here, where Jesus shared the Last Supper with the apostles; where, after his resurrection, he appeared in their midst; where the Holy Spirit descended with power upon Mary and the disciples. Here the Church was born, and was born to go forth,” he recalled.
In recognition of the significance of the holy site, Pope Francis celebrated the mass of the Holy Spirit along with the bishops of the Holy Land, noting that the Spirit’s presence is still with the Church today.
“The Church, in her going forth, preserves the memory of what took place here; the Spirit, the Paraclete, reminds her of every word and every action, and reveals their true meaning.”
Pope Francis also spoke of how Jesus washed the feet of the disciples in the Upper Room at the last supper, offering an example of “welcoming, accepting, loving and serving one another.”
He recounted how Jesus celebrated the first Eucharist with his disciples, and continues to be present in the Eucharist throughout the centuries.
“In every Eucharistic celebration Jesus offers himself for us to the Father, so that we too can be united with him, offering God our lives, our joys, and our sorrows...offering everything as a spiritual sacrifice.”
The Upper Room also offers a reminder of betrayal, the Pope noted, since the traitor Judas had been present with the others there.
Betrayal can happen “whenever we look at our brother and sister with contempt, whenever we judge them, whenever by our sins we betray Jesus,” he cautioned.
Yet the holy site is also a reminder of “sharing, fraternity, harmony and peace.”
“How much love and goodness has flowed from the Upper Room! How much charity has gone forth from here, like a river from its source, beginning as a stream and then expanding and becoming a great torrent,” he remarked.
“All the saints drew from this source; and hence the great river of the Church’s holiness continues to flow: from the Heart of Christ, from the Eucharist and from the Holy Spirit.”
The Pontiff went on to consider how the Church is like a family, “that has a mother, the Virgin Mary.”
“All God’s children, of every people and language, are invited and called to be part of this great family, as brothers and sisters and sons daughters of the one Father in heaven,” he stressed.
Pope Francis concluded his final mass in the Holy Land by praying for a greater outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
“Gathered in prayer with the Mother of Jesus, the Church lives in constant expectation of a renewed outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Send forth your Spirit, Lord, and renew the face of the earth!”
I think the discussion/disagreement that followed the initial post is because of this line toward the end of the article: “The Pontiff went on to consider how the Church is like a family, “that has a mother, the Virgin Mary.” “
I see this as a point of comparison by the Pope, rather than an expression of doctrine or dogma that literally, Mary is the basis of Christianity. She may have been the vessel that delivered Jesus to us, but it is Jesus preaching His Father’s word, that our salvation is based upon and all of Christianity is founded.
Jesus is one person with two natures. Mary is the mother of Jesus, who was both true man and true God. Mary did not give birth to a nature, but to a person. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Rather than mother of God, you might as well say she's the mother of man. It makes as much sense.
Since God is triune, He exists in 3 persons. To call Mary the mother of God seems wrong. She is the mother of the son of God. She did not birth the father. She did not birth the holy spirit. I realize this term was from the early 200's, but it still sits wrong.
So Mary is the mother of God, as in the son of God. Mary is not the mother of God, as in the triune God.
grimalkin: No kidding and drawing a diagram probably wouldn't do much either.
stonehouse01: If Jesus was God, and Mary was his mother, then Mary was the mother of God. Quite simple, really, unless one doesn’t believe that Jesus was Divine.
People talk about "God" and the "Son of God" and insult and mock each other over personal understanding. It's incredible. Because, of course, these concepts are so simple that there should be no introspection at their invocation. There should be no possibility of disagreement of meaning.
Vast philosophical schools of thought, millions of lives over thousands of years, and spiritual experiences that leave Saints unable to explain what has happened to them or how to even begin describing the Divine Mystery they have been privileged to catch the merest glimpse of, should be the subject of throwaway quips designed solely to insult people for a difference of opinion about the most profound mysteries of the infinite God.
The casualness just takes my breath away. Maybe if members of various religions wouldn't be so quick to remark on the absolute stupidity of those who don't see as they do, more people could actually hear the voice of the God everyone claims to so thoroughly understand that anyone who doesn't believe as they do is a moron.
Because that was what Jesus really taught, right? He sat there and laughed and said, "Be careful, get it exactly right, down to the last little detail, or I'm gonna watch you burn despite anything else you did with your life. Because it's not what you do right - it's if I catch you in the tinyest little mistake - then, whammo! Another one bites the dust!"
/rant
If someone accepts the Scriptures it is simple. Otherwise no amount of words will convince them. Compare Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:18-23.
According to the Scriptures, Mary (Miriam) is the mother of God with us, who is Jesus.
The thing is, this does not affect our salvation. There isn't anything more interesting than discussing religion, but at the end it is Jesus and His death on the cross that atoned for our sins. So I try to steer away from discussions like the one in this thread, but sometimes I am too weak and feel like I have to make my voice heard.
I think I am going to put a sign over my monitor saying looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2) That's all that really matters.
And did it ever occur to you that God being timeless, was able to choose Mary back in the times you cite. She was indeed, chosen and preserved from Original Sin at that point in time. It was in God’s hands THEN.
Excellent reply! Thanks!
Now that's weird. Mary is the mother of Jesus. The church is the bride of Jesus. If Mary is the mother of the church, then that means incest. Illegal in all 50 states.
This has already been addressed to formerfetus in my post #17. You are restating a 5th century heresy.
To all:
The heresy of Nestorianism, dividing the natures of Christ into in essence making him 2 persons rather than 1 Divine Person with 2 natures, Divine and Human resulted in the Council of Ephesus in 431. Part of what exposes the Heresy was that Nestorius denied Mary was the Mother of God [Theotokos in Greek terminology, literally the God-Bearer]. So Mary being defined as Theotokos [Mother of God] was a dogmatic term that has Christological implications for how orthodox Christian doctrine understands who Christ Jesus is. Once one denies Mary the title Theotokos, then Christology goes heretical. Who was born at Bethlehem Christ, but Mary only gave birth to the Human Jesus? You mean the Human person Jesus, but Jesus was God. So when was he God or became God? Well, maybe at the presentation in the Temple? or maybe at the River Jordan when John Baptized him? Maybe when he began his public ministry and performed his first miracle? Maybe he became God right before he died on the Cross? All of those questions are rhetorical for all of them are heretical for it makes God Less than the Father in terms of Divinity. Christ is eternally from the Father an consubstantial with him with respect to Divinity, he took on human nature which was in union with his Divine Nature, but not in opposition or conflict [hypostatic union] but there is only 1 Person [Divine] Christ Jesus and Mary gave birth to that Divine Person who was Christ.
To avoid the charge of Catholic bias, I have linked the Reform Patristic Scholar P. Scaff’s introductory notes on the Council of Ephesus (431AD)
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.ii.html
I am not dividing the person of Jesus. He was true man and true God.
In the Nestorian view, the human and divine persons of Christ are separate. Nestorianism argues that Jesus had two persons, the divine Logos and the human Jesus. This is not what I'm arguing.
The rationalization of the council that supported the term Theotokos is correct. Mary is Theotokos because her son Jesus is one person who is both God and man, divine and human. The significance of the term is what is says about Jesus rather than any declaration about Mary.
Rather than the simplistic term Theotokos, I prefer the Athanasian Creed.
[Jesus] is God, begotten from the substance of the Father before all ages; and He is man, born from the substance of His mother in this age: perfect God and perfect man.
Tao;
Good explanation, your presentation is not Nestorian and if you prefer the Athanasian Creed’s formula, rather than Theotokos [which you accept as an appropriate term] to describe Mary’s role, that is not un-orthodox.
I have been here long enough to know that many FR Protestants embrace the Nestorian Heresy 100%. You seem to be one of the few Protestants [assuming you are, maybe your Eastern Orthodox] that actually has this correct.
I love the Athanasian Creed. We recite it every Trinity Sunday. I grew up pentecostal and married into the LCMS.
This discussion about Theotokos has been very interesting. I prefer the literal translation of God-bearer, rather than the more colorful "Mother of God".
Interestingly, the Chalcedon Creed includes the statement born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood. So this creed uses the phrase "mother of God", but with a qualification.
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