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Is Holy Communion Real or Symbolic?
Catholic in the Ozarks ^ | June 2, 2014 | Shane Schaetzel

Posted on 06/02/2014 3:21:30 PM PDT by NYer

by the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter, available from http://fssp.org
One of the greatest tragedies of the Reformation is the loss of authentic holy orders in Protestant communities, and as a subsequent result of that, the loss of the real presence in Holy Communion. Of course this is not a problem for a large number of Protestants who no longer believe in the real presence of Christ in Holy Communion anyway.

Transubstantiation is the belief that the bread and wine elements in communion, really and truly, become the actual body (flesh) and blood of Jesus Christ once they are consecrated by an authentic priest in the Divine Liturgy of the Holy Eucharist (or "Holy Mass"). The appearance of bread and wine remain, but this is just an appearance. What really exists is the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ. This belief was held by the ancient Church (see below) and is maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, as well as the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Click Image to Enlarge
This chart explains the major divisions of Protestant denominations that occurred during and after the 16th century. (Please click the image to enlarge.) Only two Protestant denominations retained some belief in the transubstantiation. The first is Anglicanism, which is hit and miss.  Some Anglicans still believe in the transubstantiation and some do not.  The second is Lutheranism, which has modified the belief into "consubstantiation," that is to say that the real presence of Christ exists in Holy Communion, but together in unison with real bread and real wine.  Not all Lutherans hold to this view, but it is a widely held belief. For the most part, the remainder of all Protestant denominations no longer believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ in Holy Communion. Rather, they believe the act of Holy Communion is totally symbolic, and the elements of bread and wine do not change into anything. They simply remain bread and wine.

From an Orthodox and Catholic perspective, the belief of most Protestants is true -- that is, for most Protestants -- because you see the sacrament of holy orders (legitimate ordination) was lost for nearly all Protestants after the Reformation period. Therefore it is impossible for them to properly consecrate the elements, and therefore the transubstantiation cannot be completed. So when they say their communion elements remain simply bread and wine, they are right. THEIR communion elements really do remain bread and wine -- nothing more.

The real question is not what happens during Protestant communion, for we know they are right, nothing happens. The real question: is what happens during Catholic and Orthodox communion? For Catholic and Orthodox, the presence of Christ is real and literal -- body and blood, soul and divinity. To be clear, the Orthodox do not usually use the word "transubstantiation" but prefer instead to reflect on the "mystery" of the sacrament. However, while the wording is often different, it is sometimes the same, as is the essential belief, in that something happens, there is a change...
He is not present typically, nor figuratively, nor by superabundant grace, as in the other Mysteries, nor by a bare presence, as some of the Fathers have said concerning Baptism, or by impanation, so that the Divinity of the Word is united to the set forth bread of the Eucharist hypostatically, as the followers of Luther most ignorantly and wretchedly suppose. 
But truly and really, so that after the consecration of the bread and of the wine, the bread is transmuted, transubstantiated, converted and transformed into the true Body itself of the Lord, Which was born in Bethlehem of the ever-Virgin, was baptised in the Jordan, suffered, was buried, rose again, was received up, sits at the right hand of the God and Father, and is to come again in the clouds of Heaven; and the wine is converted and transubstantiated into the true Blood itself of the Lord, Which as He hung upon the Cross, was poured out for the life of the world. 
-- Orthodox Confession of Dositheus, Patriarch of Jerusalem (1672)
I cite this only to point out similarities in beliefs between Catholic and Orthodox, not to make an apologetic case for one tradition over another. My comparison between Catholic and Orthodox teaching on Holy Communion ends here, and from this point I will simply discuss matters in terms of the Catholic tradition, which is as follows from the Catechism of the Catholic Church...
1373 "Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us," is present in many ways to his Church: in his word, in his Church's prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name," in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned, in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But "he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species." 
1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend." In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained." "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present." 
1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares: 
It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God's. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered. 
And St. Ambrose says about this conversion: 
Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed. . . . Could not Christ's word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature. 
1376 The Council of Trent summarises the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." 
1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.
Again, to clarify, this is both the sacrificed and risen Lord Jesus Christ who is made present in the Eucharist (Greek: thanksgiving) of Holy Communion. Thus it is an error, and a blasphemy, to say that Christ is "re-sacrificed" over and over again in the Eucharistic liturgy. For Christ was sacrificed once and for all time at Calvary. Rather, it is more accurate to say that the one-time sacrifice of Calvary is made present, in Christ's risen and living form, during the Eucharistic liturgy, over and over again. I'm afraid it is important to stress this, because a few Protestants have gone out and, in their attempt to disprove the transubstantiation, accused the Catholic Church of attempting to "re-sacrifice" Jesus Christ in the liturgy of the mass. That is to say; "kill him over and over again." Such accusations are absurd but sadly need to be addressed for clarity's sake.

Some Catholics prefer to use the illustration of a "time machine" in an attempt to explain the transubstantiation, in that the body and blood of Christ are brought to us (as through a time machine) from Calvary to the present day.  Personally, I see a lot of problems with this illustration, and prefer instead to use the example of the Jewish Passover sacrifice as an illustration.

In ancient Judaism, every sacrifice had two parts: (1) the offering, and (2) the consumption.

The offering was when the sacrifice was brought to the priest and slain. Before slaying the sacrifice, the priest would lay his hands on the sacrificial lamb, symbolically transferring the sins of sinner onto the sacrificial lamb. Then the lamb was slain. Once slain, the blood was taken to be sprinkled on the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant., then the entrails were burned and the lamb was roasted. The meat was given back to the sinner where it was to be taken home and consumed.

The consumption of the sacrifice is most clearly illustrated in the ancient Jewish passover Seder, wherein the entire meat of the lamb was to be consumed in one night by the entire family. Thus members of the family would have a first helping, then go back for a second, then a third, and so on, until the meat of the lamb was completely consumed. (This is different from the modern passover Seder which does not use lamb meat, but rather the shank bone of a chicken to symbolise the ancient practise.)

Now the offering of an ancient Jewish sacrifice was a one time event. A lamb can only be slain once. However, the consumption of the sacrifice was an ongoing event that didn't stop until all the meat of the lamb was gone.

So it is this illustration I prefer to use in explaining Holy Communion. Jesus Christ is God's passover lamb. He was slain one time on the cross, just as the Jewish passover lambs were slain one time. Then the consumption of Jesus, who is God's Passover Lamb, is ongoing in the Eucharist, as the whole of humanity is fed by this miraculous transubstantiation. Just as the ancient Jews returned for second and third helpings of their Passover lambs, so all of humanity is fed with the Lamb of God through the Eucharist. The first part of the sacrifice, the offering, was a one time event. The second part of the sacrifice, the consumption, is ongoing forever.

Now it is extremely common for many Protestants to deny the doctrine of the transubstantiation altogether, saying the communion elements are only symbolic of the body and blood of Christ. Again, I want to remind the reader, that in the case of their own celebration of communion this is true, because they do not have valid holy orders and therefore cannot have a valid consecration of the Eucharist. However, they go beyond this in saying that Catholic communion is just symbolic as well, and that Catholics engage in idolatry by believing the bread and wine literally become the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. This is where we must make a vigorous defence.

First and foremost, it is important to point out that the New Testament nowhere says the Eucharist is only symbolic. Indeed, many Protestants reinterpret the Bible to suggest that it is, but such reinterpretations are wrong. Let's take a look at what the Scriptures actually say...

Saint Paul said to the Corinthians...
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the practise of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? 
-- 1st Corinthians 10:16-18
Here Saint Paul plainly stated the bread IS the body of Christ, and the cup of wine IS the blood of Christ. He didn't say it was symbolic or merely representative, but rather "IS." We cannot impose a meaning on Scripture that is not plainly written therein. Yet there is more -- much more. Saint Paul continued...
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, ‘This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgement against themselves. 
-- 1st Corinthians 11:23-29
If what Saint Paul declared wasn't clear enough in the first citation, it certainly should be in the second. Again, quoting Jesus Christ, he said "this IS my body," and "this IS my blood."  It should be plain to see here that "is" means "is."  It does not mean "represents." Imposing that meaning on this quotation does violence to the text. Yet if that were not clear enough, Jesus Christ himself forcefully proclaims the doctrine of the transubstantiation in Saint John's gospel...
Then Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.’ They said to him, ‘Sir, give us this bread always.’ 
Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.’ 
Then the Jews began to complain about him because he said, ‘I am the bread that came down from heaven.’ They were saying, ‘Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, “I have come down from heaven”?’ Jesus answered them, ‘Do not complain among yourselves. No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught by God.” Everyone who has heard and learnt from the Father comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ 
The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live for ever.’ He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum. 
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, ‘This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?’ But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, ‘Does this offend you? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But among you there are some who do not believe.’ For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe, and who was the one that would betray him. And he said, ‘For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.’ 
Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him. So Jesus asked the twelve, ‘Do you also wish to go away?’ Simon Peter answered him, ‘Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.’ Jesus answered them, ‘Did I not choose you, the twelve? Yet one of you is a devil.’ He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot, for he, though one of the twelve, was going to betray him. 
-- John 6:32-71
The text is clear. Jesus told his disciples they must literally eat his flesh and drink his blood. There is no mistaking his meaning here, for his own disciples (those who were with him) interpreted what he said as cannibalism, so they left him. Now, did Jesus run after them and say: "No wait, I was only speaking symbolically, you misunderstood." It would be cruel to suggest that Jesus deliberately allowed his disciples to be deceived into a false interpretation of his teaching on this matter. Furthermore, he didn't confide in his closest disciples later, telling them the secret meaning of his "flesh and blood" teaching. The Gospel is clear. Jesus told his disciples that they must literally consume his flesh and blood, and then he moved on, making no further explanation.

Some will zero in on this passage: "It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But among you there are some who do not believe." (John 6:63-64)  They use this as some kind of "proof text" to disprove the entire sixth chapter of John, saying that when Jesus said his words were "spirit" he intended that to mean "symbolic." Thus, they contend, Jesus never intended his words in this chapter to be taken literally. However, in saying this, they've made a critical error. The word "spirit" does not mean "symbolic." Is the Holy Spirit just symbolic? Are spiritual beings, like angles are demons, merely symbolic? They're spiritual. If spiritual means symbolic then we have some very serious theological problems. Obviously, "spiritual" does not mean symbolic. Rather it means the exact opposite. It means "real," but it is a "higher reality" (more real than the natural world) which cannot be easily perceived with the natural senses. We believe the Holy Spirit is real, even though we cannot usually perceive Him with our natural senses -- because He is Spirit (higher reality). We believe angels and demons are real, even though we cannot usually perceive them with our natural senses -- because they are spirit (higher reality). We believe we ourselves have immortal souls, even though we cannot perceive or measure them, because they are spirit (higher reality). So Jesus Christ told his disciples the same thing. The words he spoke were spirit (higher reality) and he was explaining to them the mystery and miracle of the transubstantiation in Holy Communion. What he said was real, not at all symbolic, but rather the exact opposite of symbolic (spirit) which is a higher reality than what we can usually perceive through our natural senses. To use this passage as some kind of "proof text" that Jesus didn't really mean what he said, is to do two things. First, it imposes on the text a meaning for the word "spirit" that is not accurate, which creates all sorts of theological problems. Second, it uses a single verse to effectively negate an entire chapter. It's as if to say, Jesus created an allegory that didn't work, and then he said "just kidding" at the end. If we interpret the word "spirit" as symbolic, we have some serious problems as Christians. However, if we interpret the word "spirit" as higher reality, which is what it really means (indeed what it has always meant), then we fall back to a literal interpretation of what Jesus said. Again, this appears to be exactly what Jesus intended, because many of his disciples interpreted it literally, leaving him because of it, and he let them go.

Still, there are those who persist, saying that Jesus also called himself "the gate" in John 10:9. So does that mean that Jesus is a literal gate with hinges and a latch? Such tactics are an act of desperation and reveal an unwillingness to take in the full context and sense of the Scriptures. For example; in John 10:6 Saint John clearly explained the whole thing was a "figure of speech." As the chapter progresses, Jesus opened up a multifaceted illustration -- an allegory -- using many representations to illustrate a point. First, he likened himself to a "gate" which Saint John just said above was a "figure of speech."  Then he compared himself to a shepherd. We know Jesus was not really a shepherd, rather he was a carpenter by trade, so we can clearly see this is an allegory, for the implication is that the "sheep" who enter through the gate and are called by the shepherd, are none other than his followers. Again, Saint John plainly said that all of this was a "figure of speech," or an allegory. When allegories are used, they are explained by Christ later. He gives his disciples the proverbial "keys" they need to "unlock" them. These are plainly spelt out in the New Testament. Yet in John 6, in regards to Jesus' teaching on consuming his literal flesh and blood, no allegorical "keys" were given. He did not explain any hidden meanings, nor did he make comparisons to other things. He simply asked his closest disciples: "Do you also wish to go away?" (John 6:67) To which they responded through Peter: "Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6:68-69)  That's it. No further explanations are given. The reader is left to simply take Jesus' word as is. We must literally eat his flesh and drink his blood.

Most Protestants cannot handle this. They simply ignore it. They insist the text in John 6 is merely symbolic, in spite of no proof to that effect, and then just move on.  In fact, most of the time, they would rather change the subject, and talk about some other Catholic teaching they find less difficult to argue. Yet it's important to keep them on topic, because this is a vital teaching of the Christian faith, that should effect every single aspect of their Christian worship. For we learn from the Scriptures that the early Christians received Holy Communion often, in their regular weekly worship (Acts 2:46 & Acts 20:7), not just once a month or on special occasions. Furthermore, we learn from the Gospel of John, that refusal to believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist (transubstantiation) is in fact a refusal to follow Christ: "Because of this [Jesus' teaching on the Eucharist] many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him." (John 6:66) It's a very serious matter. Certainly, the early Christians took it seriously, as we will see in these citations from their writings.  Ignatius of Antioch was a bishop in the early Church. He was ordained by the Apostle John and made a bishop by the Apostle Peter. This is what he had to say regarding this matter...
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible." -- Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110] 
"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God.  They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes." -- Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110] 
Then we have these quotes from other early Church fathers...
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" -- Justin Martyr, First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]

"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" -- Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 189]
There is nothing in Christian antiquity that suggests the early Christians believed Holy Communion (the Eucharistic "body" and "blood") was merely symbolic. Indeed, the burden of proof falls on the Protestants when they say otherwise. A "symbolic meaning" is a new doctrine to Christianity, less than 500 years old, which was held by nobody prior to the 16th century Reformation other than those the early Christians considered heterodox (heretics). So again, I say the burden of proof is on the Protestants to demonstrate why Holy Communion is supposed to be merely symbolic. We have nothing in Scripture that tells us that. Likewise, we have nothing in the writings of Christian antiquity that tell us that. So how do the Protestants derive at that conclusion? This is the real question that must be asked. It seems to me however, that when interpreting Scripture on matters such as this, the meaning should be plain and simple. One shouldn't have to go into elaborate explanations to explain why something is meant to be understood as symbolic when there is nothing in the text to suggest that.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: orthodox; protestant; transubstantiation
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To: FatherofFive; dcwusmc
So you deny Scripture.

So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

I think you don't understand what a Rabbinical 'tradition' is. You should understand the term... Not 'Jewish tradition', but rather, the interaction between a single Rabbi and his disciples.

761 posted on 06/07/2014 10:43:29 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: FatherofFive

“Crickets”

I already answered these questions for you. I got no response. That was the reason you heard crickets.


762 posted on 06/07/2014 10:50:26 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Magnimus)
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To: CommerceComet
Oops. I copied something wrong in the last post.

This paragraph: The Bereans in Acts 17 had the audacity to question the Apostle Paul's teaching and compare it to Scripture. They were commended for that behavior by the Holy Spirit through the pen of Luke. Somehow I don't sense you commending Protestants for doing the same thing.

Should be replaced with:

As I've said before if you want to have a dialogue on the subject then protestants will have to accept the authority of Sacred Tradition in harmony with Sacred Scripture.

This is my response to that statement:

As I have said before (maybe not on the Free Republic but in other discussions with Catholics) the introduction of tradition as a support for a theological position is a tacit admission that Scriptural support for the position is not sufficient.

That's what I get when I try to post when someone is trying to talk to me at the same time. I'm too male to multi-task.

763 posted on 06/07/2014 10:50:54 AM PDT by CommerceComet (Ignore the GOP-e. Cruz to victory in 2016.)
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To: roamer_1
I think you don't understand what a Rabbinical 'tradition' is.

1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

2. Other than the specific command to John to write the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

764 posted on 06/07/2014 11:01:32 AM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive
1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book? 2. Other than the specific command to John to write the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book? 3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

The short answer is this: Among other things, the Brit Hadasha (NT) IS the tradition of the Rabbi Yeshua.

765 posted on 06/07/2014 11:08:00 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Elsie
Leave the poor woman alone!

Once again very hypocritical for you to make this comment WHEN YOU BROPUGHT HER UP IN THE FIRST PLACE. Or shold I say iot is one of YOUR typical "Look at chicken..." tactics.

766 posted on 06/07/2014 11:18:27 AM PDT by verga (Conservative, leaning libertatian)
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To: Iscool
This guy headed back to Africa with a bible under his arm and the Holy Spirit as his guide...

Did he have the KJV autographed from Paul?

This has got to be one of the stupidest thing I have ever seen posted. Intellectual poverty at it's finest on display. Please stay protestant, Please, I am asking very nicely

767 posted on 06/07/2014 11:22:46 AM PDT by verga (Conservative, leaning libertatian)
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To: Iscool; fatherOfive
Those things that were passed on were written down and preserved as scripture...Bible says plenty about people adding to those scriptures in the future...And it's not good news...

Strother Martin impersonation: What is have here is a protestant failure to read the Bible: John 21:25Those things that were passed on were written down and preserved as scripture...Bible says plenty about people adding to those scriptures in the future...And it's not good news...

768 posted on 06/07/2014 11:31:19 AM PDT by verga (Conservative, leaning libertatian)
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To: FatherofFive

I already answered these questions for you. I got no response. That was the reason you heard crickets.


769 posted on 06/07/2014 12:14:15 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Magnimus)
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To: ADSUM
So you can commit murder, abortion, theft, etc or any other mortal sin and you are still saved? And do nothing but have some faith?

So you disown your children when they sin??? You must not have any kids left...

770 posted on 06/07/2014 12:23:56 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: verga
Did he have the KJV autographed from Paul?

In fact he did...What the Eunuch was taught out of Isaiah is the same as was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls which is the same text the KJV was translated from...

This has got to be one of the stupidest thing I have ever seen posted. Intellectual poverty at it's finest on display. Please stay protestant, Please, I am asking very nicely

No problem there...I'd shoot someone if he tried to force me to become Catholic...

So the Eunuch got saved, he had a copy of the scriptures and he went on his way back to Ethiopia...And you think that is one of the stupidest things you ever heard...

It would really freak you if you ever read the bible then...

771 posted on 06/07/2014 12:32:00 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: verga
Strother Martin impersonation: What is have here is a protestant failure to read the Bible: John 21:25Those things that were passed on were written down and preserved as scripture..

21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

There was nothing other than scripture that was written down...There was nothing other than scripture that was passed along to anyone...

Is that your proof text that your religion can make up anything it wants and claim Jesus passed it on to one of you guys???

We've been trying for years to get one of you people to tell us what it was that Jesus passed on to you that wasn't written in the scriptures...Still waiting...

772 posted on 06/07/2014 12:37:31 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I already answered these questions for you. I got no response. That was the reason you heard crickets.

Never do...They can't respond...

773 posted on 06/07/2014 12:38:32 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: FatherofFive

One of the main reasons why I have difficulty accepting anything not in the Bible is your church’s past reputation, coupled with many of today’s events.. One of the reasons for the Reformation, I’m sure, had to do with the corruption at the very TOP of the RC church. I refer to a pope being killed when he was found with another man’s wife, the BUYING of the papacy, buying and selling of indulgences and so forth. I don’t have my source book with me as it’s in storage so the details are not clear in my mind, but I would imagine that if there’s a slim chance you’re NOT aware of this, you can quickly learn. And the MODERN RC church has the ongoing scandal of pedophile priests. Now, it’s true that these perverts are found in Protestant churches as well, but to my knowledge, there has never been a Baptist Bishop covering up for a philandering pastor. And THAT is the scandal, which, together with the perverted priest, taints everything RC. To me, though, it is the playboy popes of feudal times that began the questionable activities which make ALL your oral traditions suspect.

Now, in no way do I hate, loathe or despise my RC brethren. Y’all are lost sheep, just as I was. The problem is, you still think a MAN can forgive your sins, when that authority ENDED after the Written Word was available to the early assemblies, just as the ability to perform the miracles ended. YES, Peter and the others could heal, cast out demons and raise from the dead, but when the written word was available, that ended, as well.

I have no idea why it’s so difficult for you to grasp the concept that the Apostles were led of the Spirit to write their books/epistles/Revelations, but to me it seems pretty clear. THEY WERE LED OF THE SPIRIT TO WRITE THEM! Because God intended His Wprd to be a cohesive WHOLE, beginning to end, His “love letter” to us,His Instruction Manual, the story of His GIFT of Salvation to us, of why WORKS didn’t cut it but His Grace was sufficient. That you can’t grasp this simple concept is beyond me, because God made it pretty simple, so folks just like me could comprehend it. It doesn’t take someone with 99 advanced degrees to explain God’s plan of redemption. It takes an open mind and a seeking heart. That’s all.


774 posted on 06/07/2014 12:54:40 PM PDT by dcwusmc (A FREE People have no sovereign save Almighty GOD!!! III OK We are EVERYWHERE!!!F)
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To: Iscool

No we can still love our kids, but not accept their behavior and they must suffer the consequences of their actions.

Just as all of us will face the Judgment of our Lord on our Faith and works (actions).

Revelation: Archangel Michael casts out the bad angels.
[12:1–14:20] This central section of Revelation portrays the power of evil, represented by a dragon, in opposition to God and his people. First, the dragon pursues the woman about to give birth, but her son is saved and “caught up to God and his throne” (Rev 12:5). Then Michael and his angels cast the dragon and his angels out of heaven (Rev 12:7–9


775 posted on 06/07/2014 1:20:00 PM PDT by ADSUM
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To: FatherofFive
Well, it seems you have a problem. You have to ignore or throw out this from scripture to maintain you position.

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

No where have you acknowledged those two plus other verses that say similar. You either have to proclaim Paul to be in error or acknowledge that you are missing something. You can’t just ignore Paul’s writing or declare it in error. So which is it? Is there something about what James is saying that you are missing or is Paul in error?

776 posted on 06/07/2014 1:33:33 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: dcwusmc

You are right that the Catholic Church is full of sinners and we welcome them so that they will learn to love God and their neighbor.

The Catholic Church is also full of saints (those who have or will join God in Heaven). They have followed the teachings of Jesus and generally led (or changed to) a holy life. The members of the Catholic Church are the Body of Christ and inspite of all the indivdual sinners, the Catholic Church teaches the way to love God and our neighbor.

794 Christ provides for our growth: to make us grow toward him, our head,229 he provides in his Body, the Church, the gifts and assistance by which we help one another along the way of salvation. (872)

The Church is communion with Jesus

787 From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.215 Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him: “Abide in me, and I in you.... I am the vine, you are the branches.”216 And he proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between his own body and ours: “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.”217 (755)

788 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.218 As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense: “By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation.”219 (690)

In spite of all the sinners, Jesus promised the church until the end of time...
820 “Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.”277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: “That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us,... so that the world may know that you have sent me.”278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279 (2748)


777 posted on 06/07/2014 1:42:37 PM PDT by ADSUM
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To: Iscool
So the Eunuch got saved, he had a copy of the scriptures

Keep changing your story, good that makes all protestants look good. First you said Bible and add it was the KJV, now it is scripture.

News Flash: The Bible which is the OT and the NT wouldn't be out for about 350 years. second the KJV wouldn't be out until 1611, and it was copied mainly from the Douay-Rheims.

778 posted on 06/07/2014 1:47:49 PM PDT by verga (Conservative, leaning libertatian)
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To: Iscool
I know where those verses are at...Breakthrough. I told you there are two places in Scripture where God Breathed on man. You denied it, now you admit it.

I also know where the rest of the verses are that teach about and explain how and why God breathes on man...

Chapter and verse, please…

Just like a baby fresh out of the womb...If the unbilical cord is cut that baby is dead until it gets that breath of life...Talk about mysteries, that's God in action... So from that alone, we know God breathes the breath of life into all life that breathes...And that puts you down to 1 example where God breathes the Holy Spirit into someone...

You just make things up. Try to respond from Scripture. You just make things up. You have made your own religion. Cutting an umbilical cord proves God breathes on man? You are a piece of work.

Act_2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

How do you think those people were filled with the Spirit??? God breathed the Spirit into them as well...

Well, no. The ACTUAL Scripture mentions nothing of the breath of God. It does say something about tongues of fire descending on the apostles. You should try reading Scripture, instead of making things up.

Can't find the word 'breathed' in the verse???

”They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. Acts 2:3. Nope. No Breath. But I don’t have the IsAFool Translation.

Does the bible say baptized with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit???

Yes. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Matthew 28:19, 20

779 posted on 06/07/2014 1:52:16 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive

3


780 posted on 06/07/2014 2:07:49 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Magnimus)
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