Posted on 06/23/2014 6:44:09 AM PDT by Gamecock
In the 1540’s and beyond, when the Protestant Reformation had spread and taken hold in various places in Europe, the Roman Catholic Church met for a series of meetings called Council of Trent. At these meetings they wrote many canons and decrees that specifically addressed the theology of the Reformation (among other things). In these canons and decrees are very clear rejections of Protestant theology. Very often Rome used the term anathema (not maranatha!), a Greek word which means “accursed” (cf. 1 Cor. 16:22). Here are a few canons that clearly anathematize the theology of the Reformation. Note: I’ve emphasized the theological words under discussion in each canon.
- If anyone says that after the sin of Adam man’s free will was lost or destroyed, or that it is a thing only in name…let him be anathema.
- If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification…let him be anathema.
- If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
- If anyone says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by special revelation, let him be anathema.
- If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy council in the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not rather illustrate the truth of our faith and no less the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
- If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ, or that there are more or less than seven [listed here], or that any one of these seven is not truly and intrinsically a sacrament, let him be anathema.
- If anyone…denies that wonderful and singular change of the whole substance of the bread into the body and the whole substance of the wine into the blood…which change the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation, let him be anathema.
And the list goes on. This isn’t semantics or politics. Rome understood the Reformation and she anathematized many of its major emphases: bondage of the will, justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, the sacraments, and so forth. Though I am a Protestant who strongly disagrees with Trent and many of the doctrines of Rome (and therefore am under their anathemas), I do recommend reading these documents for a better understanding of the Reformation – and for proof that the Reformation still matters today.
You need to check my homepage, sister.
Can an unbeliever take the Eucharist from a non-catholic preacher and gain eternal life?
Off the top of my head I would say “No” because it is not consecrated. But I don’t know the rituals you are talking about so.....?
Walk away from your theological errors and come join sister Salvation and the rest of us in the Catholic Church. There’s still time to save your soul.
I believe you are mistaken.
Point me to the scripture that explains the consecration process that completes the
"...change of the whole substance of the bread into the body and the whole substance of the wine into the blood."
fidelis:
This is 100% accurate and concisely well stated. A heretic from a Catholic Theological Definition refers to one who is Catholic and denies or rejects a central tenant of the Catholic Faith post Baptism. Protestants hold erroneous views from a Catholic perspective and one could argue material heresy, but objectively, one can’t label the term de facto heretic against a Protestant since none of them were ever in full communion with the Catholic Church.
“If anyone,” Paul wrote to the Galatians, “preach to you a gospel besides what you have received, let him be anathema: (Galatians 1:9).
Read any of the Scriptures about the Last Supper.
Jesus’ institution of the Eucharist, as the sacramental expression of the Paschal Mystery. (Luke 24:13-35 and parallels, 1 Corinthians 11:24-25)
My apologies for the gender confusion. As far as the John passage, you and others repeatedly offer it as a standalone, “slam dunk” proof-text for transub. As such, you are obligated to take all of Christ’s words in the passage at face value, without qualification. If you’re not willing to do that, please be intellectually honest enough to admit that you can’t then turn around and use it to prove transub.
Ditto for protestants. Taking any biblical quote for truth should mean taking all biblical quotes for truth.
The Luke passage is the account of the road to Emmaus, with the salient verses being:
30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them.
and
35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.
How does this passage, in any way, constitute the "...institution of the Eucharist(sic)"?
1 Cor 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
We are both in agreement that Christians should take the Lord's supper, but it is not for salvation, rather, it is to remember Jesus' sacrifice, and to proclaim his death until he comes. Period.
Then stick with ALL God's Word. You don't read the story of David and Bathsheba and go out and do likewise with your neighbor's wife. Nor do you build theology off of one verse or passage. Everything in God's Word is there for a reason - to be understood by Believers. When rightly divided, there are no contradictions.
The short answer to your passage was conveniently left out when you omitted the rest of Jesus' statement. I point you specifically to verse 63.
63 It is the Spirit Who gives life [He is the Life-giver]; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever [there is no profit in it]. The words (truths) that I have been speaking to you are spirit and life. John 6:63 AMP
The longer response - a look at John 6 in context.
John 6:27-29 (AMP)
27 Stop toiling and doing and producing for the food that perishes and decomposes [in the using], but strive and work and produce rather for the [lasting] food which endures [continually] unto life eternal; the Son of Man will give (furnish) you that, for God the Father has authorized and certified Him and put His seal of endorsement upon Him. 28 They then said, What are we to do, that we may [habitually] be working the works of God? [What are we to do to carry out what God requires?] 29 Jesus replied, This is the work (service) that God asks of you: that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].
NOTE: Context - Unbelieving Jews challenging Jesus asking for a sign. This was after they witnessed many miracles, including the most recent - feeding of the 5,000+ with bread and fish. Note the unbelievers' question, and note Jesus' response - "Believe in the one God sent." Nothing less, nothing more.
John 6:30-36 (AMP)
30 Therefore they said to Him, What sign (miracle, wonderwork) will You perform then, so that we may see it and believe and rely on and adhere to You? What [supernatural] work have You [to show what You can do]? 31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as the Scripture says, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat. 32 Jesus then said to them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, Moses did not give you the Bread from heaven [what Moses gave you was not the Bread from heaven], but it is My Father Who gives you the true heavenly Bread. 33 For the Bread of God is He Who comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world. 34 Then they said to Him, Lord, give us this bread always (all the time)! 35 Jesus replied, I am the Bread of Life. He who comes to Me will never be hungry, and he who believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me will never thirst any more (at any time). 36 But [as] I told you, although you have seen Me, still you do not believe and trust and have faith.
NOTE: The Jews were demanding a sign, they DID NOT believe in Jesus. Jesus comes down to their level and even takes THEIR example - Moses/Manna in the wilderness, to show that He is better than physical bread - even divine bread. Note v.33 the True Bread of God is HE who comes down. The unbelievers demand this bread "always" - they still don't get it. Jesus tells them that he is the Bread of Life, those who BELIEVE will NEVER hunger or thirst - spiritually or physically. And then Jesus sums it up one last time, telling them that they "still do not BELIEVE."
John 6:40 (AMP)
40 For this is My Father's will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day. John 6:47 (AMP) 47 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, he who believes in Me [who adheres to, trusts in, relies on, and has faith in Me] has (now possesses) eternal life.
NOTE: Skipping forward between the grumbling of the unbelievers, we see Jesus once again emphasizing the Father's will and purpose - that people who BELIEVE in Jesus HAVE Eternal Life. Being reborn means that God dwells in you - if you keep (believe, honor, treasure) His Word, the Father dwells in you (John 14:22-24, Ephesians 3:17). Believers have been made alive, and are sitting with Jesus in the Heavenly realm (Ephesians 2:5-9). With that kind of spiritual unity and fellowship, what could mere food do for you? Don't let religion rob you of this glorious Truth - if you believe His Word, God Himself lives inside you. And without faith it is impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11:6).
John 6:48-56 (AMP)
48 I am the Bread of Life [that gives life—the Living Bread]. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and [yet] they died. 50 [But] this is the Bread that comes down from heaven, so that [any]one may eat of it and never die. 51 I [Myself] am this Living Bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he will live forever; and also the Bread that I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh (body). 52 Then the Jews angrily contended with one another, saying, How is He able to give us His flesh to eat? 53 And Jesus said to them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, you cannot have any life in you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood [unless you appropriate His life and the saving merit of His blood]. 54 He who feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood has (possesses now) eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true and genuine food, and My blood is true and genuine drink. 56 He who feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood dwells continually in Me, and I [in like manner dwell continually] in him.
NOTE: Several times Jesus has mentioned faith in him as the means to Eternal Life. He now once again attempts to reach a stubborn people with the Truth - this time through a 'hard saying'. They used the Moses/Manna example, so Jesus starts there. Jesus is the Bread of Life. He will give his life - ONE TIME - for the world. Eating flesh and drinking blood was contrary to the Law, so that is a stumbling block if the idiom is not properly understood. This is clearly figurative language. Consider the many times Jesus shocked his listeners with hard sayings and figurative language such as pluck out your eyes, I am the vine, or cut off your foot, or I am the door, or unless your righteousness surpasses the righteousness of the Pharisees you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In other words, works, sacrifices, offerings, ceremonies, signs etc. will never make you righteous. Faith in Jesus is the ONLY way. Why would anyone think a loving Creator would make it difficult? What is easier than just believing His Word? These folks, like the religious throughout history, want to create their own path to Heaven, and establish their own righteousness through works. They do not believe in their Father's love (Grace) and desire to "earn" it.
To put it bluntly, to eat and drink Jesus is to consume God's Word, because the Word is Spirit and Life (John 6:63). Faith comes from hearing God's Word (Romans 10:17).
John 6:57-58 (AMP)
57 Just as the living Father sent Me and I live by (through, because of) the Father, even so whoever continues to feed on Me [whoever takes Me for his food and is nourished by Me] shall [in his turn] live through and because of Me. 58 This is the Bread that came down from heaven. It is not like the manna which our forefathers ate, and yet died; he who takes this Bread for his food shall live forever.
NOTE: There is contrast here between physical food (manna) and spiritual food (faith in Jesus - the Word made flesh - John 1). Eating bread and wine does nothing for your spirit or mind - the ones that ate the manna all died. Jesus obeyed God's Word. He only spoke God's Word. His very life was based precisely on doing God's Will, which is His Word. For Believers, the Word saves and builds faith (Romans 10:17, Galatians 3:5, 1 Thessalonians 2:13), the Word renews your mind (Romans 12:2, Ephesians 5:25-27, Colossians 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:15-18). What enters the mouth goes to the stomach, not the heart (spirit), and then ends up in the sewer (Matthew 15:17, Mark 7:19). Spiritual food, God's Word, feeds the spirit and produces life - Eternal Life.
John 6:60-63 (AMP)
60 When His disciples heard this, many of them said, This is a hard and difficult and strange saying (an offensive and unbearable message). Who can stand to hear it? [Who can be expected to listen to such teaching?] 61 But Jesus, knowing within Himself that His disciples were complaining and protesting and grumbling about it, said to them: Is this a stumbling block and an offense to you? [Does this upset and displease and shock and scandalize you?] 62 What then [will be your reaction] if you should see the Son of Man ascending to [the place] where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit Who gives life [He is the Life-giver]; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever [there is no profit in it]. The words (truths) that I have been speaking to you are spirit and life.
NOTE: Jesus confirms that the teaching was a wake up call, a 'hard saying' meant primarily for those who did not believe. When the murmurers, grumblers, and ones that were offended begin to leave - probably because they didn't get another free lunch, or the signs they demanded, Jesus lays out the Truth. The flesh (physical eating or drinking) does not help you. It is the WORD that is Spirit and Life! You BELIEVE because of God's Word, you are spiritually reborn because you believe God's Truth!
John 6:64-68 (AMP)
64 But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him. 65 And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father. 66 After this, many of His disciples drew back (returned to their old associations) and no longer accompanied Him. 67 Jesus said to the Twelve, Will you also go away? [And do you too desire to leave Me?] 68 Simon Peter answered, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words (the message) of eternal life.
NOTE: If the above does not convince you, this last passage makes it even more abundantly clear. Jesus is talking about people who did not believe. What did they not believe? What Jesus said several times in John 6 - he who believes in ME has eternal life.
And look at Peter's response, he doesn't even mention eating flesh or drinking blood. When responding to the question if they would depart, Peter says, "You have the words of eternal life." --- THE WORD - faith is in God's Word! Its so obvious it takes religion, or a theologian to screw it up!
Peter wrote the following after he was Born Again and filled with the Holy Spirit. Read this passage prayerfully, with everything from John 6 fresh in your mind. Allow the Holy Spirit illuminate the Truth of this passage. All that man thinks is special, all the religious hooey ever invented or borrowed over the last 6,000 years, withers and fades. God's Word alone is Eternal.
1 Peter 1:18-25 (AMP)
18 You must know (recognize) that you were redeemed (ransomed) from the useless (fruitless) way of living inherited by tradition from [your] forefathers, not with corruptible things [such as] silver and gold, 19 But [you were purchased] with the precious blood of Christ (the Messiah), like that of a [sacrificial] lamb without blemish or spot. 20 It is true that He was chosen and foreordained (destined and foreknown for it) before the foundation of the world, but He was brought out to public view (made manifest) in these last days (at the end of the times) for the sake of you. 21 Through Him you believe in (adhere to, rely on) God, Who raised Him up from the dead and gave Him honor and glory, so that your faith and hope are [centered and rest] in God. 22 Since by your obedience to the Truth through the [Holy ] Spirit you have purified your hearts for the sincere affection of the brethren, [see that you] love one another fervently from a pure heart. 23 You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God. 24 For all flesh (mankind) is like grass, and all its glory (honor) like [the] flower of grass. The grass withers and the flower drops off, 25 But the Word of the Lord (divine instruction, the Gospel) endures forever. And this Word is the good news which was preached to you.
A parting shot from Paul, who saw in his lifetime the danger of religion undermining the simplicity of faith in Jesus.
Colossians 2:8-10 (AMP)
8 See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit (idle fancies and plain nonsense), following human tradition (men's ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world), just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding [the teachings of] Christ (the Messiah). 9 For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature]. 10 And you are in Him, made full and having come to fullness of life [in Christ you too are filled with the Godhead—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—and reach full spiritual stature]. And He is the Head of all rule and authority [of every angelic principality and power].
NOTE: Religion will never save anyone.
Colossians 2:18-23 (AMP)
18 Let no one defraud you by acting as an umpire and declaring you unworthy and disqualifying you for the prize, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions [he claims] he has seen, vainly puffed up by his sensuous notions and inflated by his unspiritual thoughts and fleshly conceit, 19 And not holding fast to the Head, from Whom the entire body, supplied and knit together by means of its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. 20 If then you have died with Christ to material ways of looking at things and have escaped from the world's crude and elemental notions and teachings of externalism, why do you live as if you still belong to the world? [Why do you submit to rules and regulations?—such as] 21 Do not handle [this], Do not taste [that], Do not even touch [them], 22 Referring to things all of which perish with being used. To do this is to follow human precepts and doctrines. 23 Such [practices] have indeed the outward appearance [that popularly passes] for wisdom, in promoting self-imposed rigor of devotion and delight in self-humiliation and severity of discipline of the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh (the lower nature). [Instead, they do not honor God but serve only to indulge the flesh.]
NOTE: We worship God in Spirit and Truth. The enemy wants you focused on the external, things that entertain the flesh or tickle the mind. He does not want a Believer to grasp the great Truth of all that belongs to a child of God, or exercise the authority that God has given Believers.
John 4:21-24 (KJV)
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
NOTE: For any pastor, priest, or religion that starts saying that you must do this, or perform this ceremony, or wear this hat, or eat this, John 4 should be required reading. This was Jesus' response to the woman at the well, who wanted to have a religious debate with him. The last verse makes it clear - God is Spirit - they that worship Him MUST worship in spirit and Truth. This trumps every religious idea and invention of man, and puts the emphasis on God, His word, and the Holy Spirit.
Note the use of figurative language used regarding eating and drinking THROUGHOUT God's Word.
1 Corinthians 10:3-4 (AMP)
3 And all [of them] ate the same spiritual (supernaturally given) food, 4 And they all drank the same spiritual (supernaturally given) drink. For they drank from a spiritual Rock which followed them [produced by the sole power of God Himself without natural instrumentality], and the Rock was Christ.
Deuteronomy 8:3 (AMP)
3 And He humbled you and allowed you to hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you recognize and personally know that man does not live by bread only, but man lives by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord.
NOTE:Quoted by Jesus in Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4
Jeremiah 15:16 (AMP)
16 Your words were found, and I ate them; and Your words were to me a joy and the rejoicing of my heart, for I am called by Your name, O Lord God of hosts.
Revelation 10:9
So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, "Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but 'in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.'"
Job 23:12
I have not departed from the commands of his lips; I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread.
Psalm 119:103 - see all of Psalm 119
How sweet are your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
If he instituted any 'sacrament', then he added to Torah, and cannot be the sinless Messiah.
Are you saying that you do not believe in the New Testament? That you do not believe in Jesus Christ?
I agree....and the RCC needs to heed this verse.
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