The Priesthood of All Believers?

Answering Protestants ^ | 12 August 2014 | Matthew Olson

[Boogieman]

“Also, recall that Stefano Infessura was in the employ of Alexander’s enemies, and he was also one of the humanists (which, at the time, were always attacking the pontiffs).”

Ok, then you’ve still got Cardinal Farnese to try and whitewash away.

[LurkingSince'98]

you need to see the Pew survey of religion:

read this for attendance:

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/comparison-Frequency%20of%20Attendance%20at%20Religious%20Services.pdf

plus you need to ask protestants other than your own circle whether they stay home an ‘church themselves’ - when they get all put-off and huffy you will know that is what they do

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam

[xone]

This common idea of the "selling" of indulgences is mostly due to a misunderstanding.

LOL, what a dope!

[Springfield Reformer]

I honestly don't get where you're coming from on this. Take another look at that Pew chart:

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/comparison-Frequency%20of%20Attendance%20at%20Religious%20Services.pdf

The number of evangelicals (which I assume includes conservative Baptists among others), the number of self-identified evangelicals who never ever go to church is 4%. Now that's 4% too high.

But if your intent is to get some favorable comparison for Catholics, you can't get there with this survey because the number of self-identified Catholics who never ever go to church is 6%.  So it seems, if your reasoning applies equally to both, that would mean there were more "self-churching" Catholics that there are "self-churching" evangelicals. So explain to me again how this helps your case?

And here's another study which corroborates the superior attendance habits of Baptists, evangelicals, and even Mormons over Catholic attendance habits:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/22414/mormons-evangelical-protestants-baptists-top-church-attendance-list.aspx

In this one, baptists are separated out for special attention, and while we don't make the top of the chart, clearly we are ahead of the Catholics on this:



But see how the Mormons are ahead of us both.  And the Jehovah's Witnesses do pretty well too, in that Pew poll of yours. So what does that mean? Are they better off for their more frequent attendance? Not if they are sitting under false teaching.  But those who do belong to Christ must be in fellowship.  It's not optional.  The fact that some do it for the wrong reason shouldn't stop believers from doing it for the right reason.

So that's why I don't get where you're coming from.  Apparently we both have "self-churchers" in our respective denominations, and yours more than mine. But it's downright silly to use that as an argument for or against a given body of truth. It's true or its false, even if large numbers of a group's professed adherents are screwing it up. It's just not a good basis for determining divine truth. Like Paul says, let God be true, and every man a liar.

But if I were looking for signs of the true "ecclesia" of Jesus, the one He said would never fail, I would look to the one sign Jesus explicitly gave as the true marker of His people:

John 13:34-35  A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.  (35)  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Which is why I do not understand how some of these FR religious debates devolve so rapidly into bitter personal sniping, which is the opposite of love. Not talking about you and me. But we both know it's true. It breaks my heart.

Peace,

SR

[LurkingSince'98]

SR

I didn’t say the Pew research proved anything.

I simply made the point which you can believe or not, that many protestants who are critical of Catholics and other protestants alike - do not go to a weekly worship service of any kind - they stay home and ‘church themselves’.

Now I understand that regular attendance for both Catholics and protestants is poor to middlin’- a sad commentary upon our culture.

My point indirect as it may be is those folks on this forum who are critical of Catholics and each other are some of those who are ‘churchin’ themselves’ yet come off as holier than thou.

best way to find out for yourself is a discreet private mail question as to whether they do indeed ‘church themselves’ on the Lord’s Day or not.

when you get back a real ‘how dare you even ask’ response you will know.

For the Greater Glory of God - not hypocrites.

[Springfield Reformer]

Ah, now I understand. Thanks for the clarification. Having said that, my experience is opposite to what you are describing. Nearly a mirror opposite. The only protestants/evangelicals I know personally who are concerned about the errors of Catholicism are deeply committed Christians given to regular attendance. In my experience, those with the marginal attendance habits tend to be squishy on the whole thing. They don’t go because they don’t see the importance in the differences the way you and I might.

I think also it’s possible some are confused over “self-church” versus “house church.” In China the government regards the entire house church movement as illegitimate. The lack of an approved institutional tradition is the basis of condemnation. Yet these house churches are anything but “self-church.” They are rapidly growing, highly active and dynamic fellowships who have an entirely different perspective on church life than we who live in the lap of luxury and convenience. I remember reading somewhere of a house church pastor who was interviewed and his concern was visiting places where some of their people had been killed and praying to see if God might raise them from the dead, which, according to this interview, was happening on occasion.

Jesus said wherever two or three are gathered in His name, he is in the middle of that. So to have a true “ecclesia,” (assembly) you only need two people and Jesus. So you see why I am not quite able to buy into your theory. My church has many more members and a building and worship services with singing and praying and remembering the Lord’s death by way of the Lord’s supper. But Jesus spelled out the minimum. Do you think these FR self-churchers have zero contact with other believers?

Don’t misunderstand, BTW. I am not trying to endorse “self-churching.” I am however interested in avoiding being critical of fellowships that don’t conform to typical expectations of what Christian fellowship should look like. The criteria for that is set forth in Scripture, and that’s good enough for me.

Peace,

SR