I’ve got too much to atone for to worry about other people’s sins just yet. Get back to me in 2050 :P
Yet - are we not commanded to forgive? He is the judge. He gave us a rather long users manual, which most people never read. Not saying you haven’t - I know full well you have, and your (and others) commentary is strong and smart and I ponder it often.
My main problem - I guess - is one of my oldest friends (we met while he was trying to kill me, long story) recently settled down happily with his partner - who is a man in every sense of the word. I know it’s a personal thing. Just happen to be incredibly protective of the people I love. And yes, I love him - in the Agape sense, not the Eros.
Makes it hard for me to be fair. I’m going to consign a very good friend to hell?
I’d like your opinion.
Ask him a simple question. If God told you in no uncertain terms you had to abandon your lifestyle...would you? That will tell you which he values more—God or himself. And if it’s the latter, I can guarantee you that he will wind up in hell.
And let’s not kid ourselves about the “long users manual”. People have an innate sense of right and wrong called a conscience, and most normal people who are being tempted toward sexual sin have to repeatedly convince themselves that what they are about to do is ok.
No.
Looks like your friend and his partner in sodomy are trying their damnedest to consign themselves to Hell.
You're protective of the people you love? Good!!!
Call on them to repent. The Scriptures tell us that sodomites are among those who have no place in the Kingdom.
First of all, a commandment to "forgive" has no bearing on this. You're only obligated to forgive your friend if he wrongs you in some way. That's not the case here, is it?
Secondly, let's look at this differently. What if your friend was a drug abuser or alcoholic? Would you be "protective" of his lifestyle choices in that case -- even to the point of telling him that it's perfectly acceptable and normal for him to live in a constant state of intoxication or under the influence of narcotics? In addiction recovery there's a term for people who allow their friends or family members to live in a state of distress like this. It's called an enabler, and it's actually one of the most destructive influences in an addict's life.
Excuse me for butting in (but your original comment was directed toward me).
First of all, you are not consigning your very good friend to hell. His own actions are doing that.
If he is your very good friend, I would think that you want what is ultimately the best for him: and that would be for him to spend eternity in heaven. If he is sodomizing his same-sex partner on a regular basis (or is being sodomized...or both), you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that heaven will not be his ultimate destination.
A suggestion for you:
Homosexuals, virtually always, want to have full acceptance and approval of their perversion...almost like they have an innate need for you to give them permission to do as they do.
I'm not suggesting that you reject him as a friend. But when the topic comes up, don't give him your permission. For example:
Chances are you don't need to quote Scripture to them on the issue: I would wager 99.999999999% that they already know that their behavior is condemned. And I don't care if he/they are atheists or not. The Natural Law is what it is, no matter how much atheists want to ignore it.
The biggest thing is to be a light in the darkness to them. Don't condone, don't accept, don't permit. It is very possible to do that while not condemning the person.
“...recently settled down happily with his partner - who is a man in every sense of the word.”
No he is not.
You appear confused, on several levels.
You place great weight on your personal feelings dismissing the word of God.
You cite judgment as the bailiwick of God (apparently as a way of precluding men from moral conclusions) and then you ask that YOU must consign a friend to hell.
If your left hand offends you cut it off.
Nobody is against a man loving a man --- we're all supposed to love our fellow man, am I right? --- what's objected to is the directing of the erotic drive to another man, with all that entails: perverse fantasies, perverse indecencies, perverse sex acts.
It's not your business to surveil them, either, to determine just what it is they're doing under the sheets. That's not for you to knw. But if they identify as "gay," it's a disturbing likelhood they identify with that
Pray fo all such people. Really pray. Down on your knees. We should all be praying hard.
“I’d like your opinion.”
Okay.
“Makes it hard for me to be fair.”
Why would you want to be fair if it meant eternity in Hell for both you and your friend? And how could you know you were being fair, since “The attempt to make God just in the eyes of sinful men will always lead to error.”? (William L. Brown)
Further, if you were a homosexual, would you rather that people tried to help you lead a life of pickle-smooching and fudge-packing, if that meant they abandoned you to Hell, or that they tried to save you?
“I’m going to consign a very good friend to hell?”
How are you going to do that? Has God empowered you to decide the fate of souls? Telling someone to “come in off that ledge” is not the same as sending them out there in the first place, nor is it pushing them off the ledge.
However they got out on that ledge, the kind thing to do is to talk them back inside.
“Yet - are we not commanded to forgive?”
...dimitte nobis débita nostra, sicut et nos dimíttimus debitoribus nostris... (...forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us...)
We are not, however, commanded to approve of sin, or to pretend approval of sin. (Do you really approve of sodomy, or do you just pretend to?) And we are definitely not commanded to encourage others in sin, or to pretend that sin is acceptable behavior.
I believe we are to love the sinner but hate the sin. Does your friend know that you hate his sin and grieve that he is sending himself to Hell? Wouldn’t you want to know, if the tables were turned?
“I’ve got too much to atone for to worry about other people’s sins just yet. Get back to me in 2050 :P”
That is what, in the 1960s, we used to call a cop out. Of course we all have to worry about our own sins and our own souls. That goes without saying. However, if you cannot spare a few minutes to speak honestly and lovingly to your friend, in what sense is he your friend?
Do you think that Our Lord, at your own final judgment, may ask you what you did to try and save your friends who flaunted their mortal sin before you? Because I am dreading the questions He will ask of me.
“He is the judge.”
Yes, and he is certainly not so unjust as to hold us responsible for our sins without having given us the powers of discernment needed to decide whether to follow Him or not.
“He gave us a rather long users manual, which most people never read.”
How tragic that you are right. But whose fault is that?
“...one of my oldest friends...recently settled down happily with his partner - who is a man...”
Firstly, they are not happy, no matter how they protest. Sodomites as a group are miserable. Oh, sure, they have short periods during which the gratification of their unnatural lust makes them think they are happy, but this never lasts. It can’t, because that happiness is illusory.
“Just happen to be incredibly protective of the people I love.”
Then how can you stand by with an approving grin while they bugger each other right through the gates of Hell?
“And yes, I love him”
Are you acting like it?
To “forgive” does not mean “invite him to dinner and slobber all over his shoes.” To “forgive” does not mean “invite to your most famous university and give him an honorary degree.”
Don’t worry. It’s not up to you whether a friend of yours goes to hell or not. So nobody’s asking YOU to “consign” a friend to hell. Maybe your gay friend will go to heaven, because he’s invincibly ignorant. Maybe your mother is in hell because of a sin you know nothing about. Your opinion of any person simply doesn’t matter.
That doesn’t change the truth on iota. It is a gross distortion of the gospel to say that we must “forgive” Obama, and therefore must shower him with honors and hospitality and praise—which is what creeps like Dolan keep doing.
You didn't ask for my opinion but you are going to get it.
You are correct to keep loving your friend, homosexual or not. Your love/friendship isn't going to hurt ANYONE, especially those who know and love you.
Your friends will ALWAYS support yo, right or wrong.
Your enemies will ALWAYS hate you and what you do, no matter what.
The rest of the world doesn't matter.
It's GOD who will judge you and I'm pretty sure you are UP for the good place.