Posted on 10/30/2014 2:54:21 PM PDT by NYer
I always pray for my family members and friends who are deceased as well as the poor souls in purgatory who have no one praying for them. I’m glad to hear others do the same because out of my three children, all raised as Catholics until 18, only one still practices the faith currently. I’d hate to just need a few more prayers to get to Heaven and find no one praying for my soul.
Yet not once in the New Testament is Purgatory mentioned. Jesus while on the cross tells the thief that he will be in in paradise that very day. No making atonement or
“paying for” the sins of his life. Luke 23:43
GREAT post, NYer, as always.
Lol. Great image.
Every single American can relate to this!
Big mistake. “Until the last penny is paid.” for one. I’ll post some other shortly.
Referencing scripture is never a mistake.
Rather than trying to deflect the argument, try responding directly to the stated position. Jesus said that the thief would be in paradise and that he would be there today with Jesus.
Luke 23:43 KJV-
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
According to the Catholic teaching, this is not possible. Since these two teachings are mutually exclusive, one or the other must be true. That makes the other teaching false.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030).
Now for the record, if there is a conflict between what Jesus SAID IN SCRIPTURE, and the Catholic church’s teaching, which are you going to follow?
Biblical source, please, book(s), chapter(s), verses.
Signed: A seriously inquisitive seeker, in re purgatory.
I don’t just believe in purgatory, I am counting on it.
Wasn’t it Fr. Groeshel who said Purgatory is a suburb of heaven or hell depending on how you look at it?
I offer prayers for “a soul in Purgatory who has nobody else to pray for him.”
In his splendid novella, The Great Divorce, one of the characters says of the Grey Town: it is Hell, but if you don't go back you may call it Purgatory.
I highly recommend it.
Also the Greek word "Paradise" may be interpreted as the Limbo of the Fathers, not Heaven.
Your comment: Now for the record, if there is a conflict between what Jesus SAID IN SCRIPTURE, and the Catholic church’s teaching, which are you going to follow? Jesus said that the thief would be in paradise and that he would be there today with Jesus.
I assume that you believe that Jesus is the judge of the living and the dead.
Why do you presume that Jesus will judge everyone the same as the repentant thief that died next to Him?
Perhaps you have forgotten Jesus’s instructions to Peter And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; 19 and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (matthew 16:18)
Where is the conflict?
Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?- from Letters to MalcolmI believe in Purgatory. . . .
The right view returns magnificently in Newman's DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light'. Religion has claimed Purgatory.
Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'
I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.
My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round',' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed.
Scripture from the Greek Septuagint, the Old Testament of Christ, the Evangelists and Paul, and of the councils of Hippo and Carthage, affirm purgatory.
2 Mc 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
Even just Maccabees is sufficient to knock down the, "that's not in Scripture" stuff.
Search for "Scott Hahn and Purgatory" and you can find a good lecture he gave on the topic that goes over a good many other verses as well. Turtullian defended the doctrine of Purgatory in something like 160AD which shuts down the arguments about it having been made up at some late date.
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