Posted on 11/13/2014 6:49:41 PM PST by Heart-Rest
There might have been church #8 in Asia; but John evidently didn't get that info revealed to him.
““the Catholic Church ......can’t even get SEVEN of it’s own early churches to agree on ERROR!”
Which means the Catholic Church is the Church established by Christ and described in the Bible. Almost 1500 years before the first Protestant walked the earth spreading Luther’s false gospel.
“And where’s the thanks we get for FORCING you guys into coming up with the COUNTER Reformation??”
You didn’t force anything. There were reform councils long before the Protestant Revolt.
Yeah; we know!
Too bad your SEVEN churches in Asia FAILED to reform!
“Yeah; we know!”
Doubtful.
“Too bad your SEVEN churches in Asia FAILED to reform!’
Thankfully Christ is our founder so the Church continues on no matter what the Devil or Protestants do to attack it.
Good CEO recommendation...
“Get thee behind me, Satan.”
Your sects were founded by a man praised by Satan - according to the testimony of that man himself.
“Good CEO recommendation...”
Clearly not followed by the johnny-come-lately sectarians here at FR.
Your chosen religion was supposedly built upon a man to was clearly in ERROR - Condemned is the word the BIBLE calls him.
Cook your albatross well done for thanksgiving.
Understanding this passage is a key matter in discipling another, especially for spiritual babes, to help foster an inquiring mind but discerning spirit.
I hope you do not lose interest in the interpretation of this verse, because it is important to determine which of three cases of a conditional phrase applies, a nuance no fully explored in KJV.
But here is a view on this verse from the old commentator Albert Barnes, in case you don;t have it:
********
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica - Ησαν ευγενεϚεροι, Were of a better race, extraction, or birth, than those at Thessalonica; but the word refers more to their conduct, as a proof of their better disposition, than to their birth, or any peculiar lineal nobility. It was a maxim among the Jews, that “none was of a noble spirit who did not employ himself in the study of the law.” It appears that the Bereans were a better educated and more polished people than those at Thessalonica; in consequence far from persecuting:
1. They heard the doctrine of the Gospel attentively.
2. They received this doctrine with readiness of mind: when the evidence of its truth appeared to them sufficiently convincing, they had too much dignity of mind to refuse their assent, and too much ingenuousness to conceal their approbation.
3. They searched the Scriptures, i.e. of the Old Testament, to see whether these thing were so: to see whether the promises and types corresponded with the alleged fulfillment in the person, works, and sufferings of Jesus Christ.
4. They continued in this work; they searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
**********
Our concern, however, in interpreting this passage is to translate the phrase with greater precision than the ambiguosity of the AV or DRB.
That's why we should always consult the original language when looking for the true meaning and intent. If we look at the words used in Acts 17:11 more closely it becomes more clear.
The word meaning "more noble" is eugenesteroi (εὐγενέστεροι) which, as is common in Greek, is a combination of several words. In that form it is only used once in all of scripture.
The first part εὖ means "well" or "well done", "to do well" or "act rightly".
The second part of the word gínomai (γίνομαι) – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another.
Then context of usage needs to be taken into consideration. The context here would indicate a translation of "they properly acted more rightly".
Looking at the rest of that verse we see that they "properly acted more rightly" with (δέχομαι - dechomai) "ready reception of what is offered" and every day (ἀνακρίνω - inquire into, investigate, question) the scriptures (γραφὰς - graphé - passage of scripture, the scriptures).
(γραφὰς - graphé) in the New Testament generally referred to the Hebrew scriptures and we also find in used in 2 Pet 3:16 where Peter indicates the letters of Paul are considered scripture.
It would read "every day examining the scriptures if may have these things so". The meaning doesn't change. It's still examining the scriptures to see if what they are teaching is so according to scripture.
Not quite. Again, εχοι is present, active, optative, 3rd person singular. That means the "it" is singular, and refers to τον λογον which is the object of the phrase above, speaking of the body of doctrine reasoned to them by Paul, out of which they chose ταυτα, (these things, predicate nominative plural neuter) to compare with The Scriptures, point by point.
Here is a translation that fits better:
". . . whether/if it (Paul's doctrine) might persistently/always/continually have these (things) thus (an adverb referring to the state of being 'according to and consistent with The Scriptures')."
The AV and the DRB versions using "those things" as the subject of the phrase, with the verb reflecting past tense in English, is really not quite a mistranslation--it is an interpretation that does not precisely render in English what is being said in the Greek.
Furthermore, to imply that every Berean accepted Paul's doctrine as "truth" to be believed cannot be so, for though many believed in his doctrine (that Jesus was/is Christ=Messiah), but for some it was not seen to be "truth," and thus did not believe.
What is true is that prior to their verification of Paul's doctrine as to authenticity in comparison to accepted inspired Scripture, they were open-minded and received his logos=doctrine (qualified in verse 2 above and in Heb. 6:1 as to its content) enthusiastically.
The issue of the truth of his doctrine is not the thought addressed here in this passage. It is the process by which the Bereans either accepted or rejected his doctrine that is in view, for all the Bereans used this process, whatever the individual outcomes were.
Accepting the doctrine by faith is the basis for accepting it as Scriptural truth as a continuation of God's progressive revelation of Spiritual truth, when it is compared with the body of already revealed, inspired truths in the law and in the prophets. This is the only valid method of fixing the apostles' doctrine as worthy of canonicity, not by holding that its fallible hearers and practitioners could be more authoritative than The Scripture Itself.
In summary, the words of uninspired translations like AV and DRB may be corrected, especially when they encourage inconsistencies in application. The words of the verbally inspired infallible Scripture may not be corrected, nor should translations yield to undermining the meaning of and in the context.
As an aside, the above passage firmly commends revealed Scripture as the ultimate authority in settling doctrinal disputes.
That may be all good and fair but none of that changed the intent of the passage. I don’t believe anyone said or left the impression that all the Bereans believed. The intent was as you said in your last paragraph. Scripture as the ultimate authority in settling doctrinal disputes and Paul was using them as an example of not falling for the teachings of false teachers.
Did the "infallible interpreter + infallible tradition + infallible scripture" that Jesus Christ embodied and employed = complete "harmony" among his first followers? (The answer, of course, as the Bible makes clear, is an emphatic no!, and your post is fallacious.)
Actually, it is your post that is post is fallacious, as my post did not say "complete," but which your falsely inserted to make it an argument you could refute.
Meanwhile, the RC premise of having a claimed assuredly infallible magisterium settles the problem of variant interpretations is also fallacious. For Catholcism exists in sects and schisms, in addition to RC squabbling, and interpreting Rome so as to exclude others as really being Catholics, but whom she counts and treats as members in life and in death.
RCs can and do even engage in interpreting just how many infallible teachings there are, as well as aspects of their meaning, in addition to that of lower levels of magisterial teaching, from V2 to encyclicals to papal Bulls to what the pope said recently.
And what doctrinal unity Rome has is quite limited and largely on paper, and which according to Scripture (Ja. 2:18) does not constitute what one really believes, but what one does and effects (Mt. 7:20) constitutes that evidence.
And what Rome effectually conveys by what she does is that even proabortion, prohomo, promuslim pols are members in life and in death. Which speaks louder than some paper statements, and thus fosters more RC supporters of such. In contrast to those who hold most strongly to the primary distinctive of the Reformation.
Its your church, and these are your fellow members, and you must own them.
Once again your play loose with one of my posts in order to "correct" it, as i clearly stated,
And which if not now, was still in force at the time when the (my source) Catholic Encyclopedia was written [http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Religious_Discussions], which adds,
And of course, Rome considers all as heretics who reject any of her many heresies .
Much of Canon Law is changeable when it is not related to "doctrinal matters" concerning "faith and morals",
And of course i know Canon Law is changeable, even when related to "doctrinal matters" concerning "faith and morals," as this is, but it is not to actually change the formal teaching which its regulations pertain to.
Thus your attempted correction is superfluous, and simply confirms the changeable nature of Catholicism, and in which obedience to the pope in one century can be disobedience in another.
Jesus owns Mary.
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