How Christians Will Know They Can Join Hands With Rome

The Cripplegate, New Generation of Non-Conformists ^ | October 29, 2014 | Eric Davis, Pastor since 2008 of Cornerstone Church, Jackson Hole, WY

[RnMomof7]

With Reformation Day coming up, this is a good time to recall why the Reformers departed from Roman Catholicism. In our day especially, it seems that many Christians have history-amnesia when it comes to the importance of what God did through the Reformers. During the Reformation, great confusion existed regarding what was, and was not, the true church of Christ. Rome had asserted itself as the true church for centuries, and continues to do so today. However, as the Reformers recognized then, Christians must follow in step today by recalling that joining hands with Rome is a departure from Christ.

To be clear, this is not to say that everyone who sits in a Roman Catholic church is not a Christian. What it is saying is that several changes must occur before Roman Catholicism, by the book, can be considered biblical Christianity. And the men and women of the Reformation understood this, hence their necessary break with Rome. In their case, and ours, joining Christ necessitates breaking with Rome and coming under Christ means coming out from under Rome.

Christians will know that it is time to join hands with Rome when it does the following:

1. Renounce the Papacy.

[ravenwolf]

I think the best answer is we are not saved by following the Law, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

---

Yep, saved by grace through faith.

[RnMomof7]

I think that is what happened with selling indulgences ..they needed the cash, they developed purgatory.. they developed “relics” to make this a valid practice they had to start to “preserve” bodies ...just sick game... just sick

[RnMomof7]

I think YOU need to check your bible.. the NT is written in greek...Greek has 2 words for "priest" neither word was applied to the church.

The Jewish priesthood was a type of Christ fulfilled on the cross.. where Jesus was both Priest and sacrifice.. God destroyed the priesthood in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed ..the end of the priesthood type and the sacrifice types.

There was no priesthood in the NT church until the 300s when the mass became considered a "sacrifice"

[Petrosius]

I think YOU need to check your bible.. the NT is written in greek...Greek has 2 words for "priest" neither word was applied to the church.

How many times do we have to have this discussion? "Priest" (preost) is the Old English word for, and only for, presbuteros. The word for hiereus (the temple priest) was sacerd. The latter fell out of usage in Modern English and the English term for presbuteros (priest) was applied to hiereus. The difficulty is not that we are using the title of the temple priest for presbuteros but that we are using the title of presbuteros (priest) for hiereus.

[avenir]

Fantastic list, metmom. Here’s a couple additions from Hebrews:

“The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were PREVENTED by death from continuing, but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood PERMANENTLY. Therefore He is able also to save FOREVER those who draw near to God through Him, since He ALWAYS LIVES to make intercession for them.”—7:23-25

“So when God desired to show MORE CONVINCINGLY to the heirs of the promise the UNCHANGEABLE CHARACTER of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two UNCHANGEABLE things, in which it is IMPOSSIBLEfor GOD to LIE, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a SURE and STEADFAST anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus HAS GONE as a forerunner ON OUR BEHALF, having become a high priest FOREVER after the order of Melchizedek.”—6:17-20

And let all the people say Amen! Praise the LORD.

[tomsbartoo]

Ahhh, but it does matter about you, and only you. It matters to each one of us , individually. You, like I, will one day when we least expect it, stand naked before God. We will be judged for what we have done or not done on our own merits. Whatever popes, bishops and priests said or did not say will be of little or no consequence. If you don’t understand that, I’m not sure much more can be said for you until you figure that one out.

As a traditional Catholic that abhors Vatican II, I sympathize with what you have to say. Nevertheless, my sympathies will do nothing for your salvation. The popes and the bishops of the neo-Catholic Church have led many souls away fromn God, and for sure, they will answer to God for their errors. They have been given much, and much will be expected of them. But that does not have one whit to do with either my salvation or yours.

Although you don’t hear it much these days, the answers to everything is with God. He created you and me for one reason––to know love and serve Him with our whole heart, mind and soul. We are to love our neighbor as ourself because it pleases God––not because it please our neighbor. The modernist bishops of the Catholic Church have cashed in with the secular world and are walking hand-in-hand down a very dark alley with the press and those secular leaders of the world. It is only the foolish who follow them.

But still, our faith must be with the only one Church created by Jesus Christ, the Roman Catholic Church. Yes, it is sometimes difficult to see through the haze, but the Church and Jesus Christ are still there in the Sacraments and in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Novus Ordo Mass is a disgrace, but it is a valid Mass that still allows us to witness what Jesus told us to witness––the re-creation of His Sacrifice on Calvary. If you have the opportunity to regularly attend a Tridentine Mass you should do so. I am a daily Communicant but I have only access to a Novus Ordo Mass today. Hopefully that will change soon.

These thoughts of mine are for your soul, because your soul is as precious as mine and everyone else’s in the eyes of God. What is said on these sites is totally meaningless. There is only one Truth and that is with the true teachings of the Catholic Church. I would not allow another day––not another hour to go by without visiting a Catholic priest––progressive or traditional––and make a good confession to get straight with God.

[metmom]

Thank you.

[FourtySeven]

I hope your headache got better.

[RnMomof7]

The Holy Spirit knows Greek..He says WHAT HE MEANS .. There is no Greek word for priest in the NT church. Rome has tried to redefine the Greek to mean something else. But it means what it says ...The NT church had no “sacrifice” of the mass until the 300’s when they redefined the mass as a “sacrifice then they redefined the word presbuteros.

The belief that the Holy Spirit and the early church did not know the difference between presbuteros and hiereus or misused the word is more than a stretch.But it is a pretty good bet by Rome that the members that never read the bible would buy that.

There was no “priesthood” until 300 or so AD .

I would recommend the book Catholic Customs and Traditions: A popular guide by Greg Dues

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0896225151/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3BCGXMZU35S1O&coliid=I2W81J8B8SIL3G

The jewish priesthood was a “type” of Christ where He offered Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of men.
he was bot the priest and the sacrifice... as a final not God destroyed the priesthood and the sacrifices in 70 AD

[Petrosius]

Did you even read my post? We are talking about English, not Greek. No one has ever claimed that presbuteros and hiereus are the same. In English "priest" means first of all "presbyter". This was its original only meaning and has persisted until today. This was the only meaning of the word for hundreds of years. The use of "priest" for hiereus came later after the proper Old English word sacerd dropped out of usage.

The inability of many Protestants to understand this is that they have been successfully, if dishonestly, catechized to disassociate the modern Catholic presbyteral priest from the New Testament presbyter. Thus when they see the word "priest" they only see the Old Testament temple priest. But this is not the only, nor the first, meaning of the word.

[RnMomof7]

Did you even read my post? We are talking about English, not Greek.

The NT is written in greek... and so that is translated.. Rome has changed the definition of presbuteros

πρεσβύτερος

You do not get permission to change what God has said HIS church should looks like

Actually it is Rome that is redefining what the word means. If God had wanted to continue sacrifices..He would have given that outline and USED THE WORD FOR PRIEST (one that offers sacrifices) hiereus ...

Transliteration presbyteros	Pronunciation pres-bü'-te-ros (Key)
Part of Speech adjective	Root Word (Etymology) Comparative of presbus (elderly)
Dictionary Aids Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry TDNT Reference: 6:651,931
Outline of Biblical Usage elder, of age, the elder of two people advanced in life, an elder, a senior forefathers a term of rank or office among the Jews members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God
KJV Translation Count — Total: 67x The KJV translates Strongs G4245 in the following manner: elder (64x), old man (1x), eldest (1x), elder woman (1x).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Help You do not get permission to change what God has said HIS church should looks like Actually it is Rome that is redefining what the word means. If God had wanted to continue sacrifices..He would have given that outline and USED THE WORD FOR PRIEST (one that offers sacrifices) hiereus ...

[RnMomof7]

Bump

[Petrosius]

The NT is written in greek... and so that is translated.. Rome has changed the definition of presbuteros

But we are not debating the definition of presbuteros but of priest. I do not understand why you cannot accept the fact that the original meaning of priest was indeed presbuteros, and only presbuteros.

Actually it is Rome that is redefining what the word means.

Actually Rome had nothing to do with the English word "priest" taking on the additional meaning of hiereus. At the time, around the 12th century, Rome was still using Latin. They had little knowledge, and no control, over the development of the English language. The fact that the proper word in English for hiereus dropped out of the language and was replaced with the word (priest) that had already been used solely for presbuteros for hundreds of years was the result of the local development of the language. Indeed, it was the English reformers who were redefining words by attempting to remove the original meaning of "priest".

Among the definitions for presbuteros from Vine's Expository Dictionary that you list is: "a term of rank or office … among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably." This office that presided over the assembly continues to exist to the present day. In English this office became known as "priest", a term that was used exclusively for presbuteroi for hundreds of years before being applied to hiereus. That Vine's Dictionary does not include this in its definition is a sign of dishonesty.

Your citations from the KJV carries no weight. The KJV was a new Protestant translation that did not reflect actual English usage. Rather, following Tyndale's example, it was attempting to change English usage by denying the continuity of the Catholic presbyteral priesthood from the NT presbyterate. Its authority for me in this debate is no greater than that of the Douay-Rhiems would be for you.

Again, if you object to "priest" carrying two meanings you should object that hiereus is being translated by "priest." Why not start a campaign to bring back the proper English word for hiereus: "sacerd"? "Priest" originally only meant presbuteros and has had this as its definition for over a thousand years.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “sacerd” <<

.
Sacerd child molester?

Sacerd pagan sun god cookie breaker?

What does “sacerd” mean?

.

[Petrosius]

What does “sacerd” mean?

Just as "priest/preost" was the Old English word (derived from the Latin presbyter) meaning presbuteros, "sacerd" was derived from the Latin sacerdos and means hiereus. As an example, from the Wessex Gospel of Luke from the 10th century:

1:5 On Herodes dagum, Iudéa cyniges, wæs sum sacerd on naman Zacharias, of Abian túne: his wíf wæs of Aárones dohtrum, and hyre nama wæs Elizabeth.

In the days of Herod, King of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah; his wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.

English originally had two district words for presbuteros and hiereus: "priest/preost" and "sacerd." Contrary to the claims of Protestant apologists, Rome did not malevolently mistranslate presbuteros by using the word for hiereus for presbuteros. Rather, in a natural process of linguistic development sacerd dropped out of English usage. It was the English commons, not Rome, than then started to us "priest" for hiereus.

[editor-surveyor]

I can’t find sacerd in any dictionary.

[Petrosius]

I can’t find sacerd in any dictionary.

Try Bosworth-Toller Anglo-Saxon Dictionary:

sacerd es; m.

A priest (the terns is not confined to the Christian priesthood)

As I said, its use dropped out of English and so cannot be found in modern English dictionaries.

[Elsie]

How Christians Will Know They Can Join Hands With Rome

WE can join NOW!

Just kiss the; uh; ring.

[Elsie]

We all know this mantra!!!

[RnMomof7]

But we are not debating the definition of presbuteros but of priest. I do not understand why you cannot accept the fact that the original meaning of priest was indeed presbuteros, and only presbuteros.

Only to Rome..like everything they touch it is twisted and turned into whatever they say it means.. The Holy Spirit choose greek because it is a PRECISE language. There is a clear distinction between

ἀρχιερεύς

Transliteration

archiereus

Pronunciation

är-khē-e-ryü's (Key)

Part of Speech

masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

From ἀρχή (G746) and ἱερεύς (G2409)

Dictionary Aids

Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 3:265,349

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. chief priest, high priest

2. the high priests, these comprise in addition to one holding the high priestly office, both those who had previously discharged it and although disposed, continued to have great power in the State, as well as the members of the families from which high priest were created, provided that they had much influence in public affairs.

3. Used of Christ because by undergoing a bloody death he offered himself as an expiatory sacrifice to God, and has entered into the heavenly sanctuary where he continually intercedes on our behalf.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 123x

The KJV translates Strongs G749 in the following manner: chief priest (64x), high priest (58x), chief of the priest (1x).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon Help

And

ἱερεύς

Transliteration hiereus	Pronunciation hē-e-ryü's (Key)
Part of Speech masculine noun	Root Word (Etymology) From ἱερός (G2413)
Dictionary Aids Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry TDNT Reference: 3:257,349
Outline of Biblical Usage a priest, one who offers sacrifices and in general in busied with sacred rites referring to priests of Gentiles or the Jews, metaph. of Christians, because, purified by the blood of Christ and brought into close intercourse with God, they devote their life to him alone and to Christ
KJV Translation Count — Total: 32x The KJV translates Strongs G2409 in the following manner: priest (31x), high priest (1x).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Help AND the word the HOLY SPIRIT chose for the church Lexicon :: Strong's G1984 - episkopē ἐπισκοπή Transliteration episkopē Pronunciation e-pē-sko-pā' (Key) Part of Speech feminine noun Root Word (Etymology) From ἐπισκέπτομαι (G1980) Dictionary Aids Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry TDNT Reference: 2:606,244 Outline of Biblical Usage investigation, inspection, visitation that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad oversight overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church KJV Translation Count — Total: 4x The KJV translates Strongs G1984 in the following manner: visitation (2x), bishoprick (1x), office of a bishop (1x). Thayer's Greek Lexicon G1984 G1984 Rome had everything to do with it..they REDEFINED the word..and general usage that became a SECOND MEANING IN ENGLISH ..it still means the exact same thing in greek ..If God had intended a priesthood in the NT church, it would have been CLEARLY defined..as it is in the OT.. but no where do we read of that role in the NT church.. there was no mass, no re-sacrificing of Christ until Rome decided that the "mass" was a sacrifice that required a OT type priest..(300 ad) Before that time Elders (Bishops) traveled between Dioceses to preform baptisms, or marriages.. there were no "priests" No Greek lexicons or other scholarly sources suggest that "presbyteros" means "priest" instead of "elder". The Greek word is equivalent to the Hebrew zaqen, which means "elder", and not priest. You can see the zaqenim described in Exodus 18:21-22 using some of the same equivalent Hebrew terms as Paul uses in the GK of 1&2 Timothy and Titus. Note that the zaqenim are not priests (i.e., from the tribe of Levi) but are rather men of distinctive maturity that qualifies them for ministerial roles among the people. Therefore the NT equivalent of the zaqenim cannot be the Levitical priests. The Greek "presbyteros" (literally, the comparative of the Greek word for "old" and therefore translated as "one who is older") thus describes the character qualities of the "episkopos". The term "elder" would therefore appear to describe the character, while the term "overseer" (for that is the literal rendering of "episkopos") connotes the job description. (International Standard Version of the Bible) (ii) Presbyters According to all texts previously quoted the presbyterate is the bishop's advisory council and his support, and constitutes with him a governing body which has a claim to due reverence and obedience while itself subordinate to him (Trallians 12.2; Ephesians 4.1; cf. Polyc., v, 2).(new Advent The following certain conclusions can be derived from Hermas: (a) The superiors are called presbyters (Vis., ii, 4, 2; Vis., iii, 1, 7, 8; Vis., iii, 11, 3); bishops and deacons (Vis., iii, 5, 1; Sim., ix, 27, 2, bishops alone; Sim., 26, 2, deacons alone), proegoumenoi tes ekklesias Vis., ii, 2, 6); together with protokathedritai (Vis., iii, 9, 7); pastors (pastores; no Greek text; Sim., ix, 31, 5 and 6). (b) Since Hermas has no exact and fixed terminology, no clear distinction can be discovered in his writings between bishops and presbyters. (new Advent) Mention of bishops by Polycrates In a synodal letter written by Polycrates of Ephesus about the year 190 this bishop, sixty-five years of age, speaks of seven of his relatives who had been bishops before him. Besides these he mentions Polycarp and Papirius of Smyrna, Thraseas of Eumenea, Sagaris of Laodicea and Melito of Sardes (Eusebius, "Hist. Eccles.", v, 24, 2 sq.).(New Advent) All of this because IN THE GREEK Presbyters means, elder, overseerer or bishop.. not PRIEST.. the early church has no mention of a priesthood