Posted on 01/28/2015 1:23:00 PM PST by RnMomof7
John’s Gospel.
It’s the one what’s got ‘Gospel according to John’ on it, or some such ; )
Nothing you mention is part of the teaching of the Catholic Church. It's not in any canonical Scripture, but that doesn't mean it's false or a "fake." No Catholic is required to believe or even be aware of the stories you mention.
In the East, it is generally held that Mary died. In the West, the more common opinion is that she did not.
That's lame. He said at that time. "But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die." He didn't say "anyone may eat after Pentecost" or anything like that. If He was talking about His own physical flesh and blood He made no distinction of when they could begin eating it.
>>Please explain to me how TALKING about doing something, but actually DOING it later, is somehow impossible.<<
Jesus and those Jews were still under the law Arthur. If He was demanding that they eat His real flesh and blood He was leading them into sin. Does the Catholic Church consider leading someone into sin a sin in itself?
So did you have a vision or anything?
Not a one.
Scripture itself tells us. The infant believers only get the milk of the word but those mature get the strong meat of the word. His word is the food whereby we live and grow.
Arthur would Jesus offer something to an unsaved crowd .. He could not give at a time before Rome says He did it??
John 6 is a metaphor please read the 6th chapter of John from verse 1 until the end with me .
Jesus preformed a miracle where thousands were fed bread. He then went away from the crowd.
The crowd followed him, but not because they sought Christ as teacher or Savior, not because they knew he was the Christ, but because they wanted to get their stomachs full of bread.
Read the rebuke of Christ to them
Jhn 6:25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jhn 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
It was then He began to teach that they were looking for a miracle that would fill their stomachs ( as did the nation of Israel in the desert) and not for His presence or teaching. They only wanted their temporal needs met.
Jhn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jesus laid out that salvation was by FAITH, and that Faith was a work of the Father
Then then decided to put Christ to a test ...Give us PROOF. It was THEY that brought up the manna (bread) Not Christ
Jhn 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Jhn 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Jesus clarified where salvation comes from;
Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven
He was pointing out that the "bread from heaven " that kept their fathers only gave them physical life.. HE on the other hands was sent from the Father to give them eternal spiritual life.
They did not "get it" they were looking for REAL bread to give them physical life as had happened in the desert, they were looking for tangible bread like manna, justy as they were looking for an earthly savior not a divine salvation.
Jhn 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Jesus then patiently explained to them that His flesh is life for the world.. His crucified body was what was going to bring eternal life, not a temporal one
Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you,That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The entire message is on salvation by faith .
The listeners did not get it , they were hung up on another point .
Jhn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Notice the focus of the crowd was not on Him being the BREAD or eating Him but that He said he came down from heaven ( a claim of divinity )
Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Jesus here declares that the manna was a TYPE of Christ.. The manna gave physical life, His flesh is for the eternal life of men
Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Keep in mind He had already taught at some length that He that believed on Him would be saved. He has already taught that the man that is taught by the Father comes to him and are saved. So to interpret this as other than a metaphor of being saved by His soon to be broken body and his shed blood, by internalizing the fact of the atonement in faith is not a good reading and it is not the understood by the new church
This is from jamison"Here, for the first time in this high discourse, our Lord explicitly introduces His sacrificial death--for only rationalists can doubt this not only as that which constitutes Him the Bread of life to men, but as THAT very element IN HIM WHICH POSSESSES THE LIFE-GIVING VIRTUE.--"From this time we hear no more (in this discourse) of "Bread"; this figure is dropped, and the reality takes its place" [STIER].
Jhn 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
If they were offended at that, he was saying wait until you hear the rest
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
That’s the one! Only on the word of some lady 100s of years after the apostles were gone she claims to have had a vision so the Catholic Church decides to capitalize on it.
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Kind of like "on this rock"?
Once again, the fact that she was so insignificant to the apostles and any of the other writers of the day that not one word of mention after she happened to be with the apostles and hundreds of others on the day of Pentecost. The who Catholics proclaim "the mother of God" generated not one word of mention. Not even John with whom she was supposed to have lived with and certainly should have known about her end.
Hmmm. Either Catholics make Mary into a goddess, or we neglect her. Make up your mind.
That's funny Arthur. The Catholics of today make her into a goddess. The apostles and writers for the first couple of hundred years knew she was insignificant.
Oh yes they did. I believe it was Springfield Reformer especially that gave a very good one. I'm not surprised you ignored it.
You've never used the phrase, "I'll chew on that awhile."? Tell me, do Catholics allow people to "chew" on the Eucharist wafer now, because when I was a young Roman Catholic, it was forbidden to use your teeth and chew on the thing. What is so hard about seeing metaphors and imagery for what it is? To "gnaw", "chew", "munch" translated from the Greek word "trogo" is a present active participle, as is the Greek "pino", for drink/imbibe, and connotes on ongoing, keeping on, continuous action of eating and drinking. Seeing as we don't chew (put to the tooth) the Communion bread (you don't do you?), then grabbing the tense of the Greek words to somehow prove they aren't metaphor, is over reaching even for Roman Catholicism. Faith in Christ IS ongoing and when we receive Him as Savior/the Bread of Life, we will never hunger or thirst, but are continuously fed by the Spirit. The life we are given is not physical nor carnal, but is spiritual and everlasting.
And getting back to my original point, you cannot help but agree that the bread and wine do NOT physically change to human flesh and blood - it HAS TO BE symbolic and a metaphor. Up until the Platonic and Aristotelian Greek philosophy crept in and words like "transubstance" got used to rationalize the "mystery" of the Lord's Supper, Christians got along just fine understanding that by our faith, belief, we are partaking in the sacrifice of Christ's body and blood for our sins. It was an profession - an outward act - of faith, much like baptism, to remind us of the grace of God and to be an outward testimony to others of our inner faith - a faith that endures to the end.
Been over an hour and a half...Catholics don't respond to scripture much...
The age old debate of literal meanings or allegorical ones.
The statement of Jesus: into which category did it fall?
It can mean; I'd suppose; 3 different things; depending on how someone classifies it.
Forbidden was hardly the word.
It was a SIN!!!!
And those nuns struck the fear of God into you about it. They had you thinking that God would strike you dead for doing something like that to Christ's body.
You just had to swallow it whole, after you scraped it off the roof of your mouth with your tongue, where it stuck like it was super-glued on.
You possibly might be right.
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