Protestants - Explain "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?"

Vanity | 3/19/2015 | pgyanke

[pgyanke]

There has been an less-than-productive discussion on this thread regarding the last words of Christ on the Cross. It could be because it started with the suggestion--right in the title--that Catholics don't understand Jesus. Not a great way to initiate dialogue and ecumenism.

I would like to take a different approach here. I would like to hear my Protestant brethren explain these words of Christ from the Cross:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

What does it mean? Why did He say it?

[CynicalBear]

>>Your attitude is disrupting an otherwise interesting thread.<<

The little bubble of thinking your word was the end all was prone to be burst.

[taxcontrol]

Not only is individual interpretation OK, it is both scriptural and reality. Individual interpretation has been, is and will continue to exist in all of Christendom. Why? Because it is reality.

Understand this, when you stand before God on Judgement Day, will you be able to use the excuse “That is what the priest said.”? “This is what pope XXX said.” No, you will answer for yourself, your actions and your failings.

When the scripture (Philippians 2:12) says “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

Hear that - “... your own salvation...”. You, regardless of who you are (layman, priest, bishop or pope) cannot and will not answer for anyone else on judgement day. You will answer for yourself and how you interpreted scripture. And in that moment, the only thing that will save you soul is Jesus stepping forward and saying that you are one of his. That he paid the price for you.

[pgyanke]

And then maybe you need teaching that is “authoritative” but every single truly born-again regenerate Christian is “taught of God.” God gave us His Word and He gives us teachers, but we are never to simply accept anyone’s “authoritative” teaching.

This is an apt explanation for the disunity of the Protestant world. The Calvinists, Baptists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Evangelicals, Presbyterians, Methodists, Pentecostals, Anabaptists, et al can't all be correct at the same time. They all approach the Bible from a differing faith tradition and interpret the exact same passages in opposing ways. The lack of a teaching authority in the Protestant world doesn't erase the Magisterium... it makes everyone their own Pope! When all are equal in authority, there is no authority. When every answer is true, there is no truth.

The people in Berea were called more noble because they searched the Scriptures daily to see if what they had been taught was true.

Yes... and what Scripture did they search? There wasn't a Canon of the New Testament for them. St Paul himself says repeatedly that he brought them Tradition (2 Thess 2:15, Phil 4:9). This Tradition is the Gospel of Jesus which illuminated the Old Testament just as Jesus opened the eyes and ears of the Apostles on the Road to Emmaus.

Since we don’t have Rome’s authoritative teachings to blindly spout, you should marvel at the general consistency of the responses.

I spout nothing blindly and what I post I post for the edification of the Church. If others are posting without careful consideration of faith then they do great damage to those who truly seek to understand. And, by the way, you do have the Church's Wisdom available to you for study... She has never hidden it.

[.45 Long Colt]

There is no need for you to concern yourself what I meant by that since Rome tells you what to think.

[pgyanke]

In specific to the false teachings of the Catholic Church, the teaching of purgatory is blasphemous as it calls Jesus's teachings a lie.

By what authority do you call it a lie? Your own interpretation? There are other interpretations that predate you and I that are much closer to the time of Christ. In fact, there are prayers for the dead written on the walls of the catecombs that date back to the Church's early beginnings. Given that this practice was demonstrably known and it wasn't condemned in Church councils shows that it is a very early and consistent teaching.

Consider Matt 12:32 where Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" suggesting that there is forgiveness of sins even after death. Consider the words of St Paul in 1 Cor 3:15 where he explains what happens in judgement where each man's work is tried. What happens if his work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire". This loss can't be Hell because St Paul says the man will be saved and it can't be Heaven since there is no suffering (fire) there. 1 Peter 3:19 makes reference to a place in the afterlife that is neither Heaven nor Hell. Is it Purgatory? We don't know, specifically. However, to say that Purgatory is absolutely not Biblical is much too easy. There is room for a teaching authority to explain.

[pgyanke]

Otherwise, the thief would not be able to enter paradise "this day".

The Church has never made Herself judge over the souls of men. That is Christ's alone and it is His prerogative to welcome us home. The Church teaches us how to live and worship in the Family of God. Those who come to repentance without a chance to enter the Church may experience a "Baptism of Desire" where they would have been baptized had there been time. Certainly, if you follow Jesus's ministry, had their conversation occurred not on the Cross, Baptism would have followed.

[pgyanke]

Yet here you bait us, proceed to lecture us and give excuse for not humbly considering that maybe a respondent is correct and you’re not.

I am here explaining Church teaching on a specific subject. I carefully consider all of my responses. Where I am wrong, I have admitted it. I claim no infallibility. I haven't criticized every response on this thread because many have been correct. I simply answer where an answer is needed.

[pgyanke]

Perhaps you should stop writing here for a while, and go consider the notion of humility.

Banishment for starting a conversation? Speaking of humility...

[pgyanke]

No one said God did not see an obedient son. Or that God saw sin on the wooden beams he was nailed to.

I recommend a rereading of the posts on this thread. Very many said exactly that.

[pgyanke]

For all of eternity the son was with God and for a “split second” in the spiritual realm God turned his face...

Care to cite your Biblical source?

[pgyanke]

The Church has ever had lively debate on subjects of faith. Then there is authoritative teaching. When the Church holds bound that something must be believed as an article of faith, it is so. Where She has not, there is much discussion and this discussion has enriched our understanding of Scripture through the ages. What I have presented here is official Church teaching and, as I said, there is much more to the teaching than would be read, if it were posted here. What I gave is a sky-level view of the truth. Delving deeper is the study of a lifetime.

[Elsie]

What does it mean?

Look up Psalm 22

Why did He say it?

Let's mind read GOD for a while...

[pgyanke]

Your cabal is prone to individual interpretation and that is OK?

You infer too much. Any personal interpretation must be tested through the understanding of the Church. We are not authorities unto ourselves, though some men may say they are. My warning of other perspectives that call themselves Catholic but are not in keeping with the Magisterium is the same as it has always been for the Church. Look for the Imprimatur to know that you are reading authentic Catholic doctrine. Just because someone calls himself a Catholic doesn't make it so. Unity of doctrine and faith makes one a Catholic.

Seems your little game gottcha came back around and bit you.

Not really. It showed exactly what I expected. Until I posted Church teaching, the responses were all over the place from "God abandoned Jesus" to "Jesus IS God and can't abandon Himself" to "No one can know what this really means." It showed the lack of authority in the Protestant world to have true unity of faith through private interpretation. Once I posted the Church teaching, you have all lined up to attack me and the Church.

[Elsie]

Why did He say it?

To show His Humanity??

Haven't we ALL said this; at one time?

[pgyanke]

Thank you for understanding. I’ll try to go back to it tonight and see what I can do. God bless.

[Gamecock]

***Any personal interpretation must be tested through the understanding of the Church.***

So provide us with the Offical Roman Catholic teaching? You seem to have access to it, why make us rummage around the webs with so many private Papist promulgations?

[Elsie]

As an LDS member, we reject all of the Creeds and our Christology is based on the event of God the Father and Jesus Christ side-by-side visiting our Prophet Joseph Smith in the spring of 1830.

Then, as a MORMON, you can SHOW us just what is WRONG with a creed; right?

I'll make it easy for you...

I believe in one God the Father Almighty,

Maker of heaven and earth,

And of all things visible and invisible:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God,

Begotten of his Father before all worlds,

God of God, Light of Light,

Very God of very God,

Begotten, not made,

Being of one substance with the Father,

By whom all things were made;

Who for us men, and for our salvation came down from heaven,

And was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary,

And was made man,

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate.

He suffered and was buried,

And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures,

And ascended into heaven,

And sitteth on the right hand of the Father.

And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead:

Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost,

The Lord and giver of life,

Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son,

Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified,

Who spake by the Prophets.

And I believe one Catholick and Apostolick Church.

I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.

And I look for the Resurrection of the dead,

And the life of the world to come.

Amen.

Pick it apart if you will...

[Elsie]

As an LDS member, we reject all of the Creeds...

This is NOT true.

Mormonism has it's OWN 'creed'.

Here is MORMONism's own creed:

---

 

 

Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

[BlueDragon]

I am not baited by every challenge and I can't possibly answer every post.

But you baited a long list of people here...for no reason other than to preach "the Roman Catholic Church" rather than the Gospel.

Most other-than RC Christians don't give the RCC much of a passing thought, so no, you are wrong. The RCC is not needed as "a foil" as you said in one comment or another on this thread (to which you pinged myself, but I have no interest in being "baited").

"...and I can't possibly answer every post. I answer where I think there is a reason to answer that is edifying for me and for the conversation."

So it's all about you, and your opinions -- and what you are trying to prove, eh?

Due to more than a few of your own past (foul) comments on this forum --- I have absolutely zero interest in hearing from you.

If I make some comment, or provide some material or commentary, then be free to be free and exercise the freedom to speak and write to me.

Otherwise, don't ping me to any of your trollish efforts or commentary.

I am simply not interested in anything which you have to say.

[Elsie]

While Jesus Christ isa God, in the New Testament he reverences and humbles himself before God the Father.

---

 

Trinity:

 

found in the Book of MORMON        -----------   rejected in the Doctrines and Covenants 

Book of Mormon: Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. (Alma 11:28-29) ...and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. (Alma 11:44) ...doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31:21) ...praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7) ...power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son--And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, (Mosiah 15:3-5) ...of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them. (Ether 2:8) "Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name." (3 Nephi 9:15) "And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you. Verily I say unto you, that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them--Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water, and in my name shall ye baptize them. And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying: Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. And then shall ye immerse them in the water, and come forth again out of the water. And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one...And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one." (3 Nephi 11:22-27, 36)

Doctrine and Covenants: According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest. (Section 121:32) And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God. And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them--Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths--then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (Section 132:18-20) Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods. (Section 132:37)