Rejecting Mariology

Two-Edged Sword ^ | February 05, 2007 | Lee

[Elsie]

You have proof of her death?

Psalm 13:3
Look on me and answer, Lord my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,

 

Psalm 90:5
Yet you sweep people away in the sleep of death— they are like the new grass of the morning:

 

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
 
John 11:12-13
His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

 

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery:

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

Ephesians 5:14
This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

 

 
1 Thessalonians 4:13
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
 

[ealgeone]

As for the supreme honor due to God, here's part of how we express it in Catholicism. It would be wrong ("Latria") to apply the Gloria to Mary:

You roman catholics keep believing that:

Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION. Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven, serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.

[Elsie]

See my previous comment. Or are you suggesting that "the child who is to rule with an iron rod" is someone other than Jesus?

Revelation 12:6
Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Where was this place, and did she go alone?

[ealgeone]

Hold on. Unless you can show that the NT insists that "we must always limit ourselves to examples which are explicitly found in the NT", then this idea is dead in the water.

Another example of why we measure all against the Bible.

Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

[Elsie]

Do you see my point?

That HEBREW translation is different than GREEK?

[Elsie]

Those who type such foul and perverse things about the Mother of Jesus say far more about themselves than they ever say about Mary.

What is foul and perverse?

What I typed ACCURATELY describe the teachings about the Mary of the Catholic Church.

[CynicalBear]

>>You mean like Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, OSAS?<<

No, I mean like Paul clearly stated in Galatians 1:8

[Elsie]

Like Rush has shown:

Using absurdity to illustrate absurdity.

[Elsie]

What is that saying, again, about stones and glass houses?

Uh...

...people who live in rock houses shouldn't throw glass?

[CynicalBear]

No provable answer to the question of whether or not she died? Surely you jest. Any inference that she didn’t die but was assumed while still alive into heaven contradicts scripture.

[Elsie]

(etc.--there are over 50 occurrences of the specific phrase "I pray thee" in the KJV, alone)

I just LOVE occurances!!!

 

 

 

Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.

Ephem: …devotion to the divine Mother…is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.

Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS.

Fulgetius: …by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven.

Athanasius: …And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.

Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.

Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.

Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.

Antoninus: …souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED.

[Elsie]

Repeating a falsity will NEVER make it true.

[MHGinTN]

"... Mary, and all the Saints, are in Heaven... which is beyond time (and space) completely." And that is very likely a specious remark for which you have zero scriptural support. There are two axioms which I first encountered here at FR, and which have been of immense help in 'getting things into context'. I will share them with you and let you apply them to the discussions found in this thread, since you would not be open to 'instruction' from me, a non-Catholic: Without dimension Time, events do not occur; without dimension Space a thing does not exist.

Apply the axioms to things in the Created Universe, because any thing that exists has some aspect of Space, thus Jesus is in some where/when that has been created and thus is IN the Universe God created 'through Him, by Him, and for Him, and without Him was nothing created.'

You may be sure of this because you KNOW in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and that He has a body even unto this day, and He has taken that body across temporal and spatial boundaries yet it still IS a physical (thus a spacetime) body. It is not given to you or me to know the full nature of this other where/when, but rest assured it must have temporal and or spatial reality to exist.

[ealgeone]

yes sir!

[ealgeone]

paladinan thinks we should be able to use whatever we want!

[MHGinTN]

For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the Air. So shall we ever be with the Lord. ... A very interesting inference to the Jewish process of marriage.

And when we read that He said He goers to prepare a place for us, do we err in thinking that is 'create a place' rather than rearrange things for a place to receive us to?

[dartuser]

Heaven... which is beyond time (and space) completely. There is no past or future; there's only an eternal "now".

You have exactly zero Biblical data to support that ...

[CynicalBear]

Oh, so now you want to change the word to "honor". The Greek word for "honor" is timaó. It is neither latria nor dulos. The meaning of timaó is to properly assign value. "honor your father and your mother involves neither servitude nor becoming a slave of.

I'm not following you down that rabbit trail any longer. Catholics clearly give to Mary what belongs to God alone. Denying it doesn't change the fact of it.

[MHGinTN]

Okay, if you like, show me how this contradicts scripture. Not how you can make some inference based upon what is normative for the rest of humankind (well, except Tabitha, and Lazarus, and the widows son, etc).

[ealgeone]

Heaven... which is beyond time (and space) completely. There is no past or future; there's only an eternal "now".

>You have exactly zero Biblical data to support that ...<

This isn't the only topic he/she has zero Biblical data to support!