Rejecting Mariology

Two-Edged Sword ^ | February 05, 2007 | Lee

[RnMomof7]

Momma ping

[MeganC]

Deifying Mary would be offensive to the woman who saw her son die on the cross for us.

[ctdonath2]

...and who died _for_her_ as well.

Were she sinless, she would have been in no need of a Savior.

[paladinan]

Deifying Mary would be offensive to the woman who saw her son die on the cross for us.

Deifying Mary would be rank idolatry--no more, and no less. But why mention this? Is there some suggestion that someone (or some group) is actually deifying Mary?

[paladinan]

Were she sinless, she would have been in no need of a Savior.

That's not true. Saving someone by prevention (e.g. preventing someone from accidentally shooting themselves) is "saving", just as saving someone by brilliant surgery (by removing the bullets which were threatening the life of the person who *did* accidentally shoot himself) is "saving".

[RaceBannon]

promoting a sinful woman who needed a savior who was rebuked by the Son of God and elevating her to the status equal of godhood is blasphemy

Lk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Lk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Lk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
Lk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Jn 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
Jn 2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
Jn 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Jn 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

[knarf]

At the risk of being labeled a lecher (at best) ... it seems the writer indicates the rise of Mary began in the monastaries ... where men with men were alone to deal with their own selves in whatever way for whatever reasons ... and a modern man can do equally with HIS own self ... fantasizing about a perfect woman ... and make comparisons.

I guess what I'm trying to say in a round about way is ... the exalted Mary was the woman a monastic was taught to think about ... and a man living celebately, trained to think of a perfect ... and every depiction I'VE ever seen of Mary has been angelically beautiful ... woman can only lead a celebate man to deal with thoughts that he joined the monastary to get away from.

[sparklite2]

Isn’t the title of Queen of the Universe deification?

[jobim]

Son, behold your mother.

Catholics, you know the love of Mary for us her children - she has demonstrated it for 2000 years. Why would Our God & Savior not make her available to her children, just as the ONE TRUE CATHOLIC HOLY APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC CHURCH has declared from day one?

Rather, ask yourselves, why after 1500 and 17 years, did some fallen individuals begin declaring that she was nothing special?

[RnMomof7]

Deifying Mary would be offensive to the woman who saw her son die on the cross for us.

And???

[paladinan]

But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ.

St. Luke seems to disagree with you...

""My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name." (Luke 1:46-49)

St. John disagrees, too, especially in the sense that he calls Mary the mother of all Christians:

"And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron [i.e. Jesus] [...] Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. (Revelation 12:4,17)

So... are you one who keeps the commandments of God and bears testimony to Jesus? Then congratulations! The Bible says that you're a child of Mary!

[moonhawk]

Hi, Mom

Still praying everyday that you’ll return to the fullness of the truth....

[metmom]

Mary has children she gave birth to.

That isn’t the church.

[Boogieman]

Silly you. Just because she’s the “Queen of Heaven”, who has omniscience to hear all prayers to her made all over the world (even silently), and can get the Son of God to do what she wants, doesn’t mean she is deified.

/sarc

[ctdonath2]

Because it was fallen individuals who, as the lead post notes, began to deify her starting a couple hundred years after her death and over the centuries got worked into a frenzy until someone said “hey, wait, the whole point was that she’s a fallen sinner just like the rest of us, and blessed & humbled that God would choose her”.

Read the lead post, not just the headline.

[paladinan]

Isn’t the title of Queen of the Universe deification?

"Queen of Heaven" is her more common title (though some scattered devotional materials might call her "Queen of the Universe"). But: you'll have to explain how that's "deification" (apart from a reader's mere emotional reaction to the title).

If someone had said "GODDESS of the Universe", then you'd have a clear-cut case. But Queen? Mary is the Queen-Mother (Hebrew: gebirah) of the King of Kings... and she doesn't need to be "deified" in order to have the authority which God bestowed upon her. (Compare how the Davidic King Solomon treated his mother: he had a throne placed at his right hand for her, he bowed down to her, and he would not refuse her what she asked [1 Kings 2:19-20]).

And as for the idea of Jesus "rebuking" His mother... don't be silly! First of all, that would have been a violation of the commandment to "honor His mother"; second, the title of "woman" is one of great respect, and it indicates her unique role as the New Eve (compare to Genesis 3:15... the seed of the Woman is now speaking to the Woman; John 19:26, Mary as the mother of the beloved disciple, who represents us all; Revelation 11:19-12:17, the woman clothed with the sun, the mother of Jesus and the mother of all Christians). Do you honestly think that Mary was not INCLUDED (and especially so) in Jesus' description of "those who do the Will of the Father"? And do you honestly think that Jesus would have AGREED to Mary's request (cf. the Wedding at Cana) if it had been so wrong/outrageous as to merit a "rebuke" (much less produce over 100 *gallons* of choice wine--an overabundance!)?

I'd gently caution against people living out an agenda so as to see "rebukes" where there are none.

...and re: the idea that the Blessed Virgin was somehow "artificially constructed" so as to allow celibate men to "cope"... well... with all due respect: anyone who says that is speaking from utter ignorance of how celibacy actually works.

[Boogieman]

“St. John disagrees, too, especially in the sense that he calls Mary the mother of all Christians:”

John never calls Mary anything in that vision. He speaks of “the woman”, not of Mary. Conflating that woman with Mary is strictly a Catholic interpretation.

[Mrs. Don-o]

So, it's a good thing I don't know of anybody who deifies Mary.

Actualy, waitaminnit, there was one group that did. They were called the Mariavites and they were declared heretical and their founders excommunicated by Pope Pius X in 1906. I think they still have a couple of thousand members in Poland.

[paladinan]

Silly you. Just because she’s the “Queen of Heaven”, who has omniscience to hear all prayers to her made all over the world (even silently), and can get the Son of God to do what she wants, doesn’t mean she is deified.

There's a "rule" on the internet, which I wish I'd saved, about snark being inversely proportional to substance, in internet debates... :)

But to your point: no omnipotence is needed. Mary, and all the Saints, are in Heaven... which is beyond time (and space) completely. There is no past or future; there's only an eternal "now". Mary, for example, doesn't need to handle "millions of prayers per second" (those are scare quotes, not direct quotes, BTW); she has all eternity in which to respond to them. There's no "rushing" or "waiting", etc., in Heaven.