“Oh, I believe that the wedding had run out of wine, but that the governor makes no comment about that. Meaning that MAYBE he hadn’t caught on to the shortfall yet. Jesus Christ is never late.”
THEY had no wine.
“Do you deny that Jesus knew what he would do in advance, that he knew Mary would ask him to do something about it?”
Nope. Do you deny that God already knows when you’ll pray for a friend who has cancer and whether or not He’ll heal that friend or allow him to die?
“Your position appears to paint Mary to be as big of a savior of the wedding as Jesus.”
Nope. When you pray for that friend with cancer are you as “big of a savior of” that friend as Jesus? Did that ever even occur to you?
“That means NO WINE for MARY, JESUS and his disciples, either. Deny that.”
Why would I deny it? It just proves what I am saying. The marrying couple ran out of wine - THEY HAVE NO WINE - and would have been humiliated when their guests would go without.
“You’ve failed to prove Mary to be the post-life intercessor you claim her to be.”
I didn’t try to prove it. I said that the story of the wedding of Cana has been thought of as an example of her intercession in scripture. The story speaks for itself. She interceded with Jesus.
“What part of that do you not understand?”
What I don’t understand is why you assume I was trying to prove something I wasn’t when I never even said I was trying to prove it?
“Challenging me is only going to make you look worse,”
Challenging you? So showing that you were denying what the explicit text said - THEY HAVE NO WINE - is challenging you? Gee, should we all be afraid now because you were challenged?
“on this subject, or any other scriptural debate, because your catholicism is ‘iron mixed with clay’ (portions of scripture mixed with man-made traditions).”
Buddy, you denied that THEY HAVE NO WINE meant that THEY HAVE NO WINE. Quite frankly it isn’t Catholicism or I that is “iron mixed with clay” here. Remember, THEY HAVE NO WINE.
“There are events in the OT that are spiritually similar to the church age. The repopulating of Israel with people of other nations, with their man-made religious traditions, was thought to be corrected by having Hebrew priests instruct them in the ways of the God of Israel. The result was a religious mix:”
You’re not saying anything that has anything to do with what we were talking about. And that doesn’t surprise me one bit.
THEY HAD NO WINE.
**Buddy, you denied that THEY HAVE NO WINE meant that THEY HAVE NO WINE. Quite frankly it isn’t Catholicism or I that is “iron mixed with clay” here. Remember, THEY HAVE NO WINE.**
REMEMBER I SAID (in post 556)?
Further, not only was there NOT wine for the wedding party, there was NO wine for Mary, Jesus’ brethern, or he and his disciples. Mary wasn’t going to have any wine, along with everybody else. That’s not exactly intercessing; it’s more like making “your requests be made known to God”. (Phil. 4:6)
ALSO, DO YOU REMEMBER I SAID (in post 682)?
Verse 1. Marriage in Cana, and Mary was there.
verse 2. Jesus and his disciples were called to the marriage. (It sez they were called, as though they weren’t there from the start, or it probably would have said that they were ‘there’, just as Mary was ‘there’.
verse 3. “And when they wanted wine....”. Who is they?....we just got done talking about Jesus and his disciples showing up because they were ‘called’. Mary has to break it to them that they are OUT OF the wine.
You see?.... I DID mention that they were out of wine. So, now you can retract the following statement:
**So showing that you were denying what the explicit text said - THEY HAVE NO WINE - is challenging you? Gee, should we all be afraid now because you were challenged?**
I said that the governor was apparently unaware of that fact: “And he said unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men HAVE well drunk, THEN that which is WORSE: but thou HAST KEPT the good wine UNTIL NOW.” Jn 2:10
**She interceded with Jesus.**
You just couldn’t resist using the word ‘with’, as though she was nearly equal in the rescue of the wedding feast. (now, you’ll probably focus on what I just said, and ignore what follows).
I believe Jesus would have bailed out the wedding party regardless of who asked him to help. Just like he performed the miracle of healing, for the servant of the centurion, who said unto him : “..but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.” Do you pray to that centurion who showed such great faith?
There are many other of the Lord’s miracles recorded in scripture, where the people made their request to him FOR the SAKE of OTHERS.
That is the example also shown to you earlier from post 556:
Jesus taught often on prayer, such as the examples of asking a friend at midnight for loaves of bread (Lk. 11:5-8), and the widow petitioning the unjust judge (Luke 18:1-8).
Yet, you say that the Cana miracle is proof of Mary intercessing then and into the afterlife, when Jesus teaches us to ask God. And yes, James taught prayer, ‘one for another’ (5:14-18) to those believers still alive and living for God. He wasn’t writing to those that had already died in Christ, (in case you didn’t know that).
Did you follow that?...or did you somehow (conveniently maybe) overlook it?
**Do you deny that God already knows when you’ll pray for a friend who has cancer and whether or not He’ll heal that friend or allow him to die?**
Certainly not. But, He also knows that I will pray directly to him.
**When you pray for that friend with cancer are you as “big of a savior of” that friend as Jesus? Did that ever even occur to you?**
That’s a VERY poor comparison to what you are doing by praying to Mary. You’re the one giving her boatloads of credit for what happened in Cana:
**She interceded with Jesus.**
I suggest you go read up again on all of the miracles that Jesus performed in the four gospels. If nothing else, you’ll be able to put together a new list of deceased intercessors, and ask them to intercede for you.
I don’t pray to a friend in heaven other than God. He can hear just fine. I ask friends down here to pray (directly, of course) TO GOD (as the afore mentioned passage from James instructs us).
Hope your weekend is blessed!