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To: CynicalBear
I have already noted your opinion.

Would you like to define the identifying "marks" of the True Ekklesia, according to your view? Would you maintain that it would have to have no Sacraments, no Eucharist/Mass/Liturgy, no hierarchical structure, no regard for Sacred Tradition, no reliance upon a chain of Apostolic Succession, and having exclusive reliance on a 66-book "Bible"?

Is that about it? Anything else that would be a mark of the true "ekklesia"?? I need you to clarify and define this by your own point of view.

And then: would you care to name one ekklesia (identified by city or bishop) which existed in, say, the first millennium A.D., which meets these criteria?

71 posted on 04/08/2015 10:04:35 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (I like coffee because it gives me the illusion that I might be awake.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Would you like to define the identifying "marks" of the True Ekklesia, according to your view? Would you maintain that it would have to have no Sacraments, no Eucharist/Mass/Liturgy, no hierarchical structure, no regard for Sacred Tradition, no reliance upon a chain of Apostolic Succession, and having exclusive reliance on a 66-book "Bible"?

The early church, at least as we see in Acts, did not have much of what the roman catholic church claims today.

In the early church there was:

1) No pope or hierarchy (cardinals, primates, etc) as seen in the rcc today

2) People met in houses, not the buildings we have today

3) No apostolic succession as defined by the rcc.

4) No separation between clergy and laity as seen in the rcc today. All believers had a role to play in the life of the early church.

5) There was baptism, but it was not a means of salvation but rather a confirmation of salvation.

6) Communion/Eucharist was present, but was not a means of salvation, but a remembrance of the sacrifice of Jesus.

7) No worship of Mary or praying to Mary. No praying to departed believers. No statues of Mary, etc. All was focused on Jesus as it should be today.

8) No "sacred" tradition as defined by the rcc. Was there oral teaching? Yes. No one denies that. But it was based on Scripture.

9) Was there a 66 book called the Bible? Not at that point in the life of the early church. Though by 67 AD we did have all of Paul's writings circulating around the early churches. We know copies were being made and circulated. We're talking right after Pentecost so a lot of reliance was on teachings from the OT, and what the Holy Spirit was imparting to the church. See comment on Paul's writings above.

The need for a written word did became a necessity for the church though as the Apostles died off and with the encroachment of false teachings influencing the church.

10) A message of salvation through faith in Jesus and not works. Though there was an expectation that in following Jesus a believer would adhere to His teachings and life.

11) No penance or indulgences

12) No liturgy as defined by the rcc today.

I could keep going on, but you get the idea.

74 posted on 04/08/2015 10:48:17 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mrs. Don-o
>>Would you like to define the identifying "marks" of the True Ekklesia, according to your view? Would you maintain that it would have to have no Sacraments, no Eucharist/Mass/Liturgy, no hierarchical structure, no regard for Sacred Tradition, no reliance upon a chain of Apostolic Succession, and having exclusive reliance on a 66-book "Bible"?<

Yep! There's no such word as "sacrament" in scripture nor any support for it. There is no "mass" or sacrifice other than the sacrifice of praise. Catholics can not show where the "traditions" they teach were taught by the apostles. The hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church is nicolaitan and God hates it. There is no such thing as "apostolic succession" and scripture is our only source for what the apostles taught.

>>And then: would you care to name one ekklesia (identified by city or bishop) which existed in, say, the first millennium A.D., which meets these criteria?<<

Only one of the seven churches written to in Revelation was commended without warning and it wasn't "Catholic".

90 posted on 04/08/2015 4:29:51 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; CynicalBear; metmom
Everything you listed as identifying "marks" of the True Ekklesia, Mrs. Don-o, is mysteriously absent from the Church the Body of Christ, which Paul, through revelations from the risen Christ, described to its members. If we were part of the Kingdom Ekklesia you would be correct. But we are not. We are part of the Body of Christ, made up of believers in this time of the grace of God and the reconciliation of God and man by Christ's shed blood.

Everything you listed can be seen, felt, heard, etc. while the Ekklesia, the Body of Christ is made up of things that cannot be seen in this world. They are spiritually discerned and reside in heavenly places in Christ. We have one visible "mark" of our inheritance and marching orders from God: His Word.

93 posted on 04/08/2015 4:52:41 PM PDT by smvoice (There are no prizes given for defending the indefensible.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; CynicalBear
Would you like to define the identifying "marks" of the True Ekklesia, according to your view? Would you maintain that it would have to have no Sacraments, no Eucharist/Mass/Liturgy, no hierarchical structure, no regard for Sacred Tradition, no reliance upon a chain of Apostolic Succession, and having exclusive reliance on a 66-book "Bible"?

None of that can be found in the book of Acts, the historical record of the early church.

What we find in Acts, is this......

Acts 2:42-47 And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.


113 posted on 04/08/2015 5:54:04 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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