Posted on 04/28/2015 8:36:56 AM PDT by RnMomof7
It’s a question that requires little thought to answer; are you infallible? It ranks right up there with, “Are you God?” But to Catholic apologists the question is quite serious; that’s because they believe that there is a man on earth who, on the subject of faith and morals, is infallible; they call him, “holy father.” See, it does rank right up there with, “Are you God,” at least when coming from people who think their leader is equal with God on deciding issues of faith and morals.
According to Catholic apologist, John Martignoni, this question should cause Protestants to suddenly doubt everything they believe, and Catholics should take comfort in knowing they and only they, have an infallible leader here on earth. But how can they know? Is there one Catholic person out there, besides the pope of course, who will confess to being infallible? And if a Catholic is not infallible, how can he or she “know” their pope is infallible? They can’t! So if they cannot infallibly declare their pope to be infallible, then their assertion is nothing more than a fallible opinion. And if they are wrong, which my fallible counter-assertion says they are, then they are being deceived.
The logic that so often accompanies claims of papal infallibility goes something like this: “Jesus did not leave His people vulnerable to the doctrinal whims of competing leaders.”
The logic used is quite revealing; it indicates very strongly that those who use it have no idea what it means to have the gift of the Holy Spirit, because if they had the gift of the Holy Spirit they would not be looking to Rome for infallible direction. It also reveals that they think everyone else is like them, wanting to follow the whims of their leaders. It also denies the notion that Christ has relationship with man through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Their magisterium reserves that privilege for themselves and people buy into it. It’s no different than Mormons following their prophet in Utah.
The pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church, but the Apostle Paul explicitly said that Christ is the head of His Church and He reconciles all things to Himself. To wit, Catholics will be quick to agree that Christ is the head, but then immediately contradict themselves by saying, “but He established the papacy through which He reveals His truths .” Based on what? If Christ is the head and we are the body, where does the papacy fit in? I see no evidence of this claim in Scripture or history, so if the evidence is not there the papacy must belong to a different body; one that is not associated with Christ and His church.
In his newsletter on his website where he shares chapter one of his new book, “Blue Collar Apologetics,” John Martignoni instructs his faithful followers to establish the fact that Protestants are not infallible early on in discussions with them. The purpose of doing this is to attempt to convince the Protestant that he could be wrong about what he believes. The funny thing is Martignoni never tells his readers what to do if the Protestant turns the question back on them; and that is most certainly what is likely to happen.
Does Martignoni really not see this coming, or is he simply at a loss for how to address it? Once a Catholic apologist is faced with admitting their own fallibility, they will immediately be forced to deal with the realization that their claim of papal infallibility is itself a fallible opinion; so they must, therefore, admit that they could be wrong as well. And once they realize the playing field is level, the evidence will do the talking.
A Catholic apologist who is willing to concede that his belief regarding papal infallibility is nothing more than a fallible opinion will likely ask another similar question, “What church do you belong to and how old is it?” In their minds this is the true “gotcha” question. They believe, in their fallible opinions of course, that they belong to the church founded by Christ nearly 2000 years ago. But the fact is, and yes it is a fact, there was no Roman Catholic Church 2000 years ago; it took a few hundred years for that to develop. Furthermore, by their own admission, the doctrines they hold equal in authority to the Bible, which they call “sacred traditions,” did not exist at the time of the apostles; that also is a fact.
There is something, however, that is clearly older than any Protestant or Roman Catholic Church and that is the written books of the Bible. If a person bases his or her faith on these written works then no supposed authority that came later can undermine the power of God working through them. It is unfortunate that when a person comes to Christ in faith through reading the Bible, that there are so-called Christians who come along to cast doubt in their minds. For example, in a tract on the Catholic Answers website called, “By What Authority,” it is stated, “In fact, not one book of the Bible was written for non-believers.”
Not according to the Apostle John who explicitly wrote, “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name”? He did not say these are written because you believe; he said, these are written that you may believe. John’s gospel is a firsthand written testimony of the ministry of Jesus for the purpose of bringing people to Him, and Catholic apologists are telling us it was never John’s intention for us to become believers by reading it? Amazing; isn’t it? The Catholic Answers philosophy seems to be to make up facts rather than face them.
So for the sake of the next John Martignoni disciple who wants to ask me if I am infallible, the answer is no; and incidentally your answer to my identical question is also no. Thus I am not interested in your fallible opinion that your pope is infallible when speaking on faith and morals. Perhaps one of you can go tell Mr. Martignoni that chapter his one is incomplete, and that he might want to consider adding a realistic response to his question rather than a bunch of scenarios where the Protestant is simply dumbfounded. His current scenarios might have been fun for him to write, but they are only going to embarrass his readers when they go out armed with the Martignoni sword.
It is by faith that we are Saved, in the now not the by-and-by, because we are trusting/faithing in the Promises of God. God's perspective covers all of time as a volume not a string. When God speaks, worlds leap into existence. When we trust in a promise from God, we are then registered for all of time and eternity, from that instant throughout all of time's volume, and the Promise from God is a reality across all of time and eternity, for God cannot lie or deceive, He is Righteousness itself.
If we believe what Paul wrote concerning Abraham, that by faith he was counted righteous, then it is that mystery of how faithing attaches to the Cross which holds our trust in God's promises that we pin our Salvation upon.
The same Cross was/is/will be attached to Abrahams faithing in God's Promises ... that through Issac would God bless Abraham, so even before going up the mountain, Abraham exhibited his Trust in God's Promise by instructing the men with them to wait at the foot of the mountain and THEY would return to them soon enough. Abraham exhibited his faith in God's Promise with the mindset he used to make that statement to the accompanying men.
At the end of the 1000 years of Christ's reign upon the earth, with the resurrected saints from the tribulation in their earthy bodies again, along with the 'endured to the end' saints from the Tribulation, the Cross will apply to those who then receive glorified bodies as the Raptured Saints have while reigning with Christ. The power in the Blood of Christ is within every nook and cranny of time, all of past, present, and future and beyond, and it is by FAITHING in His Promises that the power is imparted to the confessing sinner and they are made a new creation.
That the seventieth week of Daniel is for the Jews is illustrated by the FACT (as shown in the Bible from Genesis to the Revelation) that during the 1000 years the Jews will again be operating on a Temple perspective, complete with the works performed in and through the Temple. The Church Age will be as much a lesson to the Jews as the sixty-nine weeks of Daniel History of the Jews is a lesson to the Church Age saints. By faith The Cross is counted as our Redemption, not by works that we have done, but by faith we are counted righteous. The thief on the cross was with Jesus in Paradise that day because he was Saved the instant he asked Jesus to 'remember him when He came into His Kingdom', by faith in Him to deliver from sin. The thief died a Saved man.
If we believe that Salvation cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, we have supernaturally attached to the Promises of God, which exist across all of time and become real in an instant and remain real for ever and ever. The ONE THING which generates 'sameness' for The Church to be Raptured is the presence of God's Holy Spirit in the human spirit of believers in God's Promises. Incidentally, Paul writes in one of his letters that PETER was the Apostle to the Jews and he, Paul, is the Apostle to the gentiles. So how is it that Catholicism has given Peter a transverse authority and set Paul aside, yet they read Paul's letters at Mass and trust in the Truth which Paul reveals? ... behold I show you a mystery ;*)
Thanks. I try very hard to not make anything personal but if I mess up, let me know. I do have a lot on my mind right now. BTW, you do a great job.
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
2 Cor 11:4
What kind of convoluted thinking is that?
"God breathed" NOT "man breathed". Psalm 68:11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.
Exodus 34:27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words,
Exodus 17:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered
“To the angela of the church in Ephesus write: followed by dictation.
“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:" followed by dictation.
“To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:" followed by dictation.
“To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:" followed by dictation.
:) Thanks. I largely stole it from a friend at college...
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>> “So you are claiming that it was only the Ephesians who received the guarantee of the Holy Spirit and anyone else who receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit it’s not as a guarantee?” <<
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That is total straw, and cannot be conglomerated from what I posted.
There are no guarantees.
We all must endure to the end. All of the apostles are in full agreement with Yeshua on this.
Paul was merely expressing his confidence in the Ephesian congregation, that they would endure, based on his knowledge of them.
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The fact of the matter is, that unless one rejects the belief in free will, one can’t believe the human authors of Scripture were some kind of secretary, writing down word for word what God dictated. Now were there some instances where during a vision or some other miraculous event they were given words to write down? Obviously. But where such miracles are NOT described we are not to believe they were some robots when they wrote Scripture or else there’s really no such thing as “free will”.
This is why the authors are always called the “inspired authors”. Their inspiration came from God but the words were theirs (unless specifically indicated otherwise). St. Paul’s writings were, for the most part, LETTERS for goodness sakes. Do you think he sat down to write those letters, went into some kind of trance, and then allowed his hands and arms to move a pen to shape some letters and words that weren’t his own?
Really?
“There are no guarantees.” In this you do err, for a Promise from God is already a reality when He makes the Promise. There is no greater guarantee than a Promise from God. Salvation upon faithing in God’s Promise IS a guarantee which goes into effect the instant we attach to that Promise. The thief on the Cross is the prime example, a man who trust in God and asked that Jesus remember him when He came into His kingdom. The man died that day a saved man, as attested by the Savior Himself back to the man.
So you too are trusting in an institution to save your immortal soul?
Wow nothing!
I have read the word all of my life, and can see false doctrine being foisted on those seeking truth.
Every corporate church I have ever attended has advanced a mixed message of the ideas of men mixed with just enough misused scripture to fool those that wish to be fooled.
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As we noted earlier, falling into error is nothing new, for even the churched do fall into error. Look at yourself! Contradicting Paul is not a good road to travel, yet there are many.
PAUL...To all that are at Rome, the beloved of God, called to be saints. Grace to you and peace, from God our Father... Rom 1:1-7.
1:1 PAUL, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes a brother, 1:2 To the church of God that is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place of theirs and ours. 1 Cor 1:1-2
2 Corinthians 1
1:1 PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother: to the church of God that is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in all Achaia:
1:1 PAUL, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead:
1:2 And all the brethren who are with me: to the churches of Galatia. Gal 1:1
Need I go on? Clearly it’s PAUL who is writing those letters. No where do any of his greetings say, in other words, “I Paul, writing for the Holy Spirit...”
No! It’s HIS (Paul’s own) words he’s writing. He’s not some secretary or dictation machine.
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>> “Look at yourself! Contradicting Paul...” <<
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That is a totally malicious falsehood.
Do you have the fortitude to withdraw it?
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>> “Need I go on? Clearly it’s PAUL who is writing those letters. No where do any of his greetings say, in other words, ‘I Paul, writing for the Holy Spirit’.” <<
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Perhaps you just read too fast?
Every time Paul offers something that was not personally revealed to him by Yeshua, he states that it is his own opinion.
All of Paul’s doctrine came from Yeshua, and the Torah that Yeshua confirmed to his disciples.
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First, you ‘selected’ (by omitting the entire second sentence and including only what you wanted to use) what I wrote to make it say what you wanted to attack in your self-righteous defense. Second ... Do you have the fortitude to read the letter to the first Thessalonians and search Isaiah and Zacharias to see to what Paul refers in 11 Thessalonians? The key to understanding scriptures is to understand first to whom the passages are written. The message in the first letter is to be a comfort to the believers. The message in the second letter is to counter some deception which had been visited upon the believers. In the first coming of the Lord, we meet the Lord in the air, yet in the second coming of the Lord where He sets foot upon the Earth, ‘the saints’ meet Him on the Earth not in the air. what I wrote to you is true. You do err in making such foolish assertions as ‘there are no guarantees’. For if we believe God’s Promise of Salvation it is already then a reality since God cannot lie and His Promises are guarantees.
How do you know that ? Maybe they were infallible ... after all are you infallible ?
What you have written to me here doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said. Certainly St Paul, as well as others in Scripture have written their opinions their thoughts but these are thoughts inspired by God. This is my entire point really.
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