Posted on 05/18/2015 6:05:47 PM PDT by Old Yeller
For years, growing up as a Roman Catholic, we were taught that we were members of the one true church. It was impressed upon us regularly by the parish priest during Mass while giving his homily; by the nuns all throughout my Catholic parochial school years of second through seventh grade.
It was impressed upon us during our preparation to receive for the first time the sacraments of Penance, Communion and Confirmation. And while attending CCD classes all the way through high school. (CCD is the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, an association established at Rome in 1562 for the purpose of giving religious education, normally designed for children.)
It was an established fact that we understood and we never questioned the validity of it. And to be honest, it was a matter of pride, that we were privileged enough to be members of the correct church, while all others had belonged to something else that didnt quite measure up to the status of the Roman Catholic Church.
After all, how could it be possible that Roman Catholicism is not the one true church?
Look at what Rome has to offer: It has the priests, the nuns; the bishops; the cardinals; and of course, the Pope. They have the Sacraments; the statues; the holy water; the incense; the Stations of the Cross; the Eucharist - in which Chris supposedly physically manifests Himself into the wafer after the consecration by the priest during the Mass; the Marian apparitionswhich appear mainly to Roman Catholics.
And they have the Vatican, where the Vicar of Christ (who they believe is Christs representative on earth), governs the faithful and makes infallible proclamations and doctrine. How can this not be the one true church? No other organization on the face of the earth comes close to offering to its flock what Rome provides for its faithful.
But, of course, to be true, one must adhere to what has been established as truth and not teach or practice what is contrary to the truth. We read in Scripture a few passages that declare what is truth and what is not. Jesus proclaimed in John 14:6:
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
No, this has WAY more to do with human capacity for intellect than just the world's view of the cross.
Of course it does, as rejecting the cross has deeper roots, in which the learned are far better at rationalizing the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and defending what they want instead. The "not many wise" extends way beyond the immediate context here, for as told the RC, the church began with common souls holding both men and writings of God as being so without an infallible mag.. and following itinerant preachers who est. their claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power.
Which is contrary to the Roman model, and which was actually in dissent from the learned and lettered.
Paul was the only documented exception and who came later, and it is he that evangelicals highly esteem.
Tell me, has the Roman Catholic church EVER produced a comprehensive Bible commentary?
Well, you have the Bible helps and notes of the official NAB for decades. Showing what intellectual prowess and learning by RCs can come up with.
The contradictions are imagined in your mind.
You wrest with the writings of Paul due to your lack of understanding.
All of the apostles preached Torah, and considered it to be a gift of love.
For the Biblically unlearned such as yourself, sorting out Paul’s comments is an insurmountable task. It is necessary to take all of Paul’s letters as a whole, and recognize that he never contradicted himself, and you can begin to fill the voids in your understanding.
Take Peter’s advice.
Oh?
In what way?
I do not mind being corrected when I can see my error.
>>>I...I...I...I.... This is why there is so much error. Some cant grasp One Church or One Pope...but they are fine with 100 Million Popes.
Nonsensical. Authority is not my schtick, it is what Jesus gave to some. ...the power to loose and bind..., from Jesus Christ himself.<<<
What I meant by schtick is that RCs use this supposed authority of their church as a battering ram against non-RCs, and as a slippery excuse for not believing what Scripture says.
My authority is the same as any Christian's. Previously I said to you:
I liken myself to the black sheep of Lk.9.49-50. He was not one of the twelve or the seventy-two, so the disciples attempted to stop him. His "authority" was that he acted in Christ's name. Christ answered his disciples:
Do not stop him, Jesus said, for whoever is not against you is for you.
You seem to have missed that acting in the name of Christ is to act as one with the authority of Christ. That is why Christ saw him as one of His own, even though he was not of the chosen few. I, nor any other Christian, needs some supposed authority of the RC church to direct our beliefs. That authority is within acting in the name of Christ - belief in His death and resurrection for the mercy and grace of salvation. If it were not so, Christ would not have blessed the black sheep's actions.
In effect, you act on an inferior (false) supposed authority of the Church, while I act within the superior (real) authority of the name of Christ.
Ah yes, been so long since logic class that I have grown accustomed to calling it the undistributed middle. Thanks
You wrest with the writings of Paul due to your lack of understanding.
All of the apostles preached Torah, and considered it to be a gift of love.
For the Biblically unlearned such as yourself, sorting out Pauls comments is an insurmountable task. It is necessary to take all of Pauls letters as a whole, and recognize that he never contradicted himself, and you can begin to fill the voids in your understanding.<<<
Do you even bother to read my posts before you knee-jerk a response. I never said that Paul contradicted himself - sheesh!
At least the RCs on this thread attempt to put up an argument with their traditions and supposed church authority. You don't even go that far. I will not respond to you anymore unless you begin to include some substance in your posts.
How can there be any contradictions when every apostle preached the same Torah?
You have been brain spun by not understanding when Paul is speaking of the Pharisees’ false law, and when he is speaking of his beloved Torah.
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Did you forget Elephant Hurling?
(Presenting an insurmountable number of unsubstantiated assertions as established fact)
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Thank you for the time and completeness for that extraordinary defense of Catholicism. A well done does not suffice. You cite several searchers who have found truth in the fullness of the Catholic faith.
The convert, Cardinal Newman, has the words Lead, Kindly Light as the first lines in one of his poems. He wrote this poem while still a young Anglican clergyman. Later he was to say that converts come to the Catholic Church “not so much to lose what they have, but to gain what they have not, by means of what they have, more may be given to them...”
I say Lead, Kindly Light. And in Cardinal Newman’s following words ‘amid the encircling gloom, Lead Thou me one!
What you you expect from sophists who are compelled to defend Rome at any cost to credibility?
"...Catholics would do well to plumb these works, since in them Protestant evangelicals often provide the biblical and philosophical scaffolding that influenced the Church Fathers that developed the catholic creeds as well as the Churchs understanding of the Bible as Gods Word.
In terms of expository preaching, as well as teaching the laity, Protestant evangelicals are without peers in the Christian world.
are their faith with their neighbors, friends, etc. Works by evangelical philosophers and theologians such as [J.P.] Moreland, [Paul] Copan, and William Lane Craig, should be in the library of any serious Catholic who wants to be equipped to respond to contemporary challenges to the Christian faith. http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/277
Thanks. While some seek evangelical converts to Rome to enliven their pews (my former priest used to exhort us, "Sing like Protestants," other impugn them as being too influenced by their Protestant beliefs.
Naw...that can't be what such an esteemed intellectual Roman Catholic revert would say about his abandoned faith "tradition"?! I wonder if those who prance him out to lead their parade ever actually read the guy's writings?
And you may want to rethink your assertion that it was some human authority that "gave us" the canon of sacred Scripture Christians accept as Divinely-inspired. Do you actually imagine God waited around for church "officials" to decide which of His inspired writings they would received or not? When Almighty God spoke through His prophets, He expected them to be obeyed and it was NOT up for discussion.
What is so extraordinary about it? Much of my career has been spent evaluating argumentation and Steelfish's arguments are horribly flawed (as many have pointed out in great detail) and therefore, ultimately and utterly non-compelling.
Personal testimony is of limited value. Counter-examples can be easily constructed - the Tiber is routinely crossed in both directions. There are several people on this thread who can provide their own personal testimony as to why they left the RCC.
That comment means, you didn't even read it. If you would post the references of some Catholic clergy who have swam away from Rome, I would certainly read them.
Taken from here, and your conversation with Steelfish, which are the examples I suppose you are pointing to...
James insists that Christians must keep the OC Law, but Peter and Paul disagree [...]
This is a false statement - ALL of the Apostles promote Torah, as they must... And it surprises me that you have left John out of the mix...
Sin is transgression of Torah, so without Torah, there is no definition of sin, and no need for a savior.
And Torah is the standard by which doctrine and prophecy is judged... Without Torah, there is no standard, and in that, no means of measure.
Two filters are necessarily applied to interpretation:
Yeshua cannot have changed Torah, and his disciples cannot gainsay their master... To wit: Torah cannot be broken, and the words of Yeshua cannot be broken. Re-read with those two filters in place, and I guarantee your perspective will change. It takes both, because without law there is anarchy, and without mercy, there is tyranny - As hoomins have been so quick to prove in the last 2000 years...
I would humbly submit that without those two filters in place, one will inevitably fall into hundreds of logic traps such as the current false conundrum with which you are wrestling.
James insists that keeping the OC Law provides freedom, while Peter and Paul again disagree, instead teaching that keeping the OC Law is akin to slavery [...]
Again, a false statement. See above, and again, include John... And don't forget David either: Ps 119 would be a good place to start. Torah has always been liberty.
The rest of your questions don't interest me as much, as without a clear perspective on Torah, the rest is made moot.
Needless to say, this does little to defend the Roman church, which is certainly not my purpose, as it is the Roman church which has, by and large, promoted the perspective which I think you are still operating under... I have found it ever so hard to dislodge that status quo, even among Protestants and Evangelicals. Apply the two filters I suggested and reason will dictate the rest.
Bless God for what is good.
Yes, to be consistent with some RCs, the man had no authority to operate in the name of the Lord apart from their sanction, and one could reject him doing so and not be rejecting Christ.
Of course, it was demanded of a certain itinerant Preacher where He obtained His authority, and who invoked the ministry of another itinerant preacher in response.
Follow 630 . If it is ever replied to.
The Law brings condemnation to the natural man and therefore he hates it. Those seeking peace with the Creator recognize the Law is a flashlight on their soul. The Law cannot save, that is not its purpose. You may try of your own strength to keep the Law, but will fail. The Law is to drive you to desperation and to cry out for help from the only Source of help in the universe to keep us from eternal damnation. Once a man is born again (and only then) will he see the Law as liberty, mercy and justice. Otherwise man will point at the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil and say "Why does God punish us so, that we may not eat of it?" But in Truth, Adam looks back with severe regret and wishes he had followed the Law to the letter and saved everyone the mortality of mankind. In that very real sense, the Law is Life.
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