Posted on 05/22/2015 4:54:44 PM PDT by OK Sun
I have been taught Dispensationalism from my mother’s womb. I was born in a dispensational environment. It was assumed at my church to be a part of the Gospel. There was never another option presented. It made sense. It helped me put together the Scriptures in a way that cleared up so much confusion. And, to be honest, the emphasis on the coming tribulation, current events that prove the Bible’s prophecy, the fear that the Antichrist may be alive today (who is he?) was all quite exciting. But what might be the biggest attraction for me is the charts! Oh how I love charts. I think in charts. And dispensationalism is a theology of charts!
The first time I came across someone who was not a Dispensationalist was in 1999. I am not kidding. It was the first time! I don’t think I even knew if there was another view. It was when I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary (the bastion of Dispensationalism) and I was swimming with some guys who were at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Once they discovered I was a dispensationalist, they giggled and snickered. They made fun of the rapture, the sacrificial system during the millennium, and the mark of the beast (which, at that time, was some type of barcode). It was as if they patted me on the head and said “It’s okay . . . nice little dispensationalist.” I was so angry. I was humiliated. I was a second-rate theologian. They were “Covenantalists” (whatever that was). But they were the cool guys who believed in the historic Christian faith and I was the cultural Christian, believing in novel ideas.
(Excerpt) Read more at reclaimingthemind.org ...
Ah, you are making my point for me.
The point is, the first approximately 3.5 years of the tribulation are NOT the wrath of God, they are (like we are undergoing now), the permissive will of God.
That is, God allows evil to exist in this world - we are living in the fallen world.
Now, once the Tribulation begins, he will remove the restrainer, and the rule of the evil one will get MUCH worse.
Right now, Christians are undergoing persecution. They will also do that in the first portion of the Tribulation, as God removes the restrainer, and evil is allowed to wreck havoc on the world.
Then, Jesus will come, and the Wrath of God will begin. Jesus’s second coming will be with a sword!
Even the Pre-Trib Rapture believers acknowledge that Jesus will catch them up in the air (i.e. Jesus will NOT be on the earth in their understanding of the Pre Trib rapture).
Yes, God’s wrath is not placed on the believer (No Christian believes it will be).
What is at issue is WHAT portion of the Tribulation IS God’s Wrath, vs His permissive will in ALLOWING Satan to wreck havoc on the world.
BTW, God’s permissive will is already at work - we live in a fallen world. What keeps Satan in check is The Restrainer - which will be removed (there is chapter and verse for that, look it up).
Once God’s restraint is removed, things will get MUCH worse in the world.
Some people believe that the restrainer is God’s people on earth, and after the rapture, we will not be “salt and light” to the world. Others believe the restrainer is an operation of the Holy Spirit. Still others believe the restrainer is the natural fear of death. There are no definitive scriptures for any of these positions, so I don’t choose a side in that argument.
Mrs Z, will you read Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the NT a couple of times, playing close attention to end time verses? Once you do so, you can form your own interpretation....
We are charged to be able to defend what we believe - this is done by KNOWING the scriptures involved. I grew up believing the same way most other 20th century Christians in America do — In a pre-trig rapture.
IMHO, when listening to those who preach Pre-Trib, it seems the main thrust is we won’t have to deal with the tough times because we will be gone (raptured).
However, after reading the scriptures, there are many holes and leaps of logic needed to place the rapture before the Tribulation.
To simply defend the pre-trib rapture timing by repeating over and over again that God will not place wrath on believers does NOT prove anything! Can you find where ti says the first half of the Tribulation is the wrath of God?
Or does he release those evil powers that have been restrained in the first half?
But Men would still rather curse God and die rather than admit there is a God - even during the first half of the Tribulation. (there is scripture for that too).
I wish you well — I am confident that God is good, and has nothing but good for us believers...but I am also confident that we need to examine the scriptures carefully for ourselves and be able to defend our positions from scripture.
Satan’s sin was not judging others, it was pride.
>>> No Reformed, amillennial or postmillennial Christian that I know of believes that they’re replacing the Jews in God’s eschatology.
So I may NOT be a dispensationalist.
The notion that God breaks covenant is the biggest obstacle I see with replacement theology.
I think i’ll side with the person who said earlier that they didn’t like to call themselves anything.
God made a promise to Abraham concerning his people, and to the nation Israel.
God keeps His promises.
I guess if we look at the operative word, and it’s root, we get “dispense”... as in “do away with”.
If that is the case, and God has somehow “dispensed” with Israel, then I find the teaching in grave error.
No doubt Israel has suffered great loss because of their rejection of the Messiah... but that does not place anyone else in line for something God explicitly and exclusively promised to His “Chosen” people.
Whoa there my FRiend. If your using something from Gary Demar as you did from here it's really risky. NO ONE has replaced Israel and never will. Nor have I heard any dispensationist make that claim.
As for the quote Demar claims came from Thomas Ice, I can't find any quote like that from him. In fact, I know he does NOT believe the church has "replaced Israel" at any time. Demar gave no source for that quote and I'm thinking it's Demar twisting the words of Ice as he is prone to do.
A lot of people miss that one.
Read Acts 1:6. "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, "Lord wilt thou at this time RESTORE AGAIN THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL?" They were inquiring as to THE KINGDOM and ISRAEL, not one word about the preaching of the cross.
I'm not going to go further into Cornelius until we can get through this part. It's just going to get mired. And if you cannot see this simple part, the rest will do nothing to help you, I'm certain. And I am not saying this in a rude way, Zuriel. It's just a fact. Until God's word is read EXACTLY as it is written, it will do no good to point these things out. You're reading what you THINK it says, or what someone told you it says, but not what it actually SAYS. Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost is a prime example.
LOL, no pride in telling others you know they’re condemned to Hell for not agreeing with you, right?
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Not "through" the wrath, "from" the wrath.
Revelation 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: 8 'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
From not through.
Luke 21:35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
It will come on all those who dwell on the face of the earth at that time. But look who is NOT destined to the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
There are more. The fact that faithful believers will NOT be subject to the wrath but will be taken out of it like Noah and Lot is indeed according to scripture.
No Reformed, amillennial or postmillennial Christian that I know of believes that they're replacing the Jews in God's eschatology.
We can say that repeatedly, until we're blue in the face, and they will not hear it.
The notion that God breaks covenant is the biggest obstacle I see with replacement theology.
Likewise, none of us are saying God breaks his covenant.
From my NT reading yesterday:
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
further down
If that is the case, and God has somehow “dispensed” with Israel, then I find the teaching in grave error.
Israel "kata sarka" needs, like everyone else, to come to Christ, lest they be lost.
but that does not place anyone else in line for something God explicitly and exclusively promised to His “Chosen” people.
Read the epistle to the Hebrews, on what Abraham was looking for, as the fulfilment of God's promise to him.
http://lesfeldick.org/
Les is a great teacher and he opened my eyes to disp.
All the Bible fits together finally
Um, the restrainer indwells Christians. Will God take some of the restrainer away (and thus the ones indwelt by that portion of the restrainer), or will God take all of the restrainer away as He functions indwelling Christians, leaving His presence as Holy Spirit worked in the time before the Church emerged?
And here is a good place to get started
http://lesfeldick.org/lesqa.html
With the suspension of the 70 weeks prophesied in Daniel 9, the worlkd awaits the beginning of the seventieth week, since the sixty-ninth week ended with John the Baptist, according to Jesus. The promises to Israel will be finished during the seventieth week. The Church Age is a pause not a replacement.
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>> “Um, the restrainer indwells Christians” <<
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What???????????
Satan indwells Christians?
He who lets is Satan, in the throne room of God.
When he is thrown out an down to Earth is when all Hell breaks out on Earth.
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Sounds suspiciously like Michael Rood teaching ...
The 69th week ended at Pentecost, after Yeshua ascended.
You, the servant of the twister, need to step away from the twister knob, es. The Holy Spirit indwells Christians. The New Testament is full of references you should not skip over as you seek to justify the heresies of your little Rood ness.
That entire 7 year period is owed to the nation of Israel alone. It's the last seven years of the 490 promised them in Daniel's prophesies. That is why God is gathering the people of the nation of Israel back to the land they were promised. The "church" cannot be on the earth during that period.
Once again, TOTAL NONSENSE.
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