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Five Reasons I Reject the Doctrine of Transubstantiation
Reclaiming the Mind Credo House ^ | March 8, 2013 | C Michael Patton

Posted on 07/09/2015 9:33:36 AM PDT by RnMomof7

The doctrine of Transubstantiation is the belief that the elements of the Lord’s table (bread and wine) supernaturally transform into the body and blood of Christ during the Mass. This is uniquely held by Roman Catholics but some form of a “Real Presence” view is held by Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, and some Anglicans. The Calvinist/Reformed tradition believes in a real spiritual presence but not one of substance. Most of the remaining Protestant traditions (myself included) don’t believe in any real presence, either spiritual or physical, but believe that the Eucharist is a memorial and a proclamation of Christ’s work on the cross (this is often called Zwinglianism). The Roman Catholic Council of Trent (1545-1563) defined Transubstantiation this way:

By the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation” (Session XIII, chapter IV)

As well, there is an abiding curse (anathema) placed on all Christians who deny this doctrine:

If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ,[42] but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, let him be anathema. (Session XII, Canon I)

It is very important to note that Roman Catholics not only believe that taking the Eucharist in the right manner is essential for salvation, but that belief in the doctrine is just as essential.

Here are the five primary reasons why I reject the doctrine of Transubstantiation:

1. It takes Christ too literally

There does not seem to be any reason to take Christ literally when he institutes the Eucharist with the words, “This is my body” and “This is my blood” (Matt. 26:26-28, et al). Christ often used metaphor in order to communicate a point. For example, he says “I am the door,” “I am the vine,” “You are the salt of the earth,” and “You are the light of the world” (Matthew 5:13-14) but people know that we don’t take such statement literally. After all, who believes that Christ is literally a door swinging on a hinge?

2. It does not take Christ literally enough

Let’s say for the sake of the argument that in this instance Christ did mean to be taken literally. What would this mean? Well, it seems hard to escape the conclusion that the night before Christ died on the cross, when he said, “This is my body” and “This is my blood,” that it actually was his body and blood that night before he died. If this were the case, and Christ really meant to be taken literally, we have Christ, before the atonement was actually made, offering the atonement to his disciples. I think this alone gives strong support to a denial of any substantial real presence.

3. It does not take Christ literally enough (2)

In each of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) we have the institution of the Eucharist. When the wine is presented, Christ’s wording is a bit different. Here is how it goes in Luke’s Gospel: “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood” (Luk 22:20). Here, if we were really to take Christ literally, the “cup” is the new covenant. It is not the wine, it is the cup that is holy. However, of course, even Roman Catholics would agree that the cup is symbolic of the wine. But why one and not the other? Why can’t the wine be symbolic of his death if the cup can be symbolic of the wine? As well, is the cup actually the “new covenant”? That is what he says. “This cup . . . is the new covenant.” Is the cup the actual new covenant, or only symbolic of it? See the issues?

4. The Gospel of John fails to mention the Eucharist

Another significant problem I have with the Roman Catholic interpretation of the Eucharist and its abiding anathemas is that the one Gospel which claims to be written so that people may have eternal life, John (John 20:31), does not even include the institution of the Eucharist. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all tell the story of Christ giving the first Lord’s table, but John decides to leave it out. Why? This issue is made more significant in that John includes more of the “Upper Room” narrative than any of the other Gospels. Nearly one-third of the entire book of John walks us through what Christ did and said that night with his disciples. Yet no breaking of the bread or giving of the wine is included. This is a pretty significant oversight if John meant to give people the message that would lead to eternal life  (John 20:31). From the Roman Catholic perspective, his message must be seen as insufficient to lead to eternal life since practice and belief in the Mass are essential for eternal life and he leaves these completely out of the Upper Room narrative.

(Some believe that John does mention the importance of belief in Transubstantiation in John 6. The whole, “Why did he let them walk away?” argument. But I think this argument is weak. I talk about that here. Nevertheless, it still does not answer why John left out the institution of the Lord’s Supper. It could be that by A.D. 90, John saw an abuse of the Lord’s table already rising. He may have sought to curb this abuse by leaving the Eucharist completely out of his Gospel. But this, I readily admit, is speculative.)

5. Problems with the Hypostatic Union and the Council of Chalcedon

This one is going to be a bit difficult to explain, but let me give it a shot. Orthodox Christianity (not Eastern Orthodox) holds to the “Hypostatic Union” of Christ. This means that we believe that Christ is fully God and fully man. This was most acutely defined at the Council of Chalcedon in 451. Important for our conversation is that Christ had to be fully man to fully redeem us. Christ could not be a mixture of God and man, or he could only represent other mixtures of God and man. He is/was one person with two complete natures. These nature do not intermingle (they are “without confusion”). In other words, his human nature does not infect or corrupt his divine nature. And his divine nature does not infect or corrupt his human nature. This is called the communicatio idiomatum (communication of properties or attributes). The attributes of one nature cannot communicate (transfer/share) with another nature. Christ’s humanity did not become divinitized. It remained complete and perfect humanity (with all its limitations). The natures can communicate with the Person, but not with each other. Therefore, the attribute of omnipresence (present everywhere) cannot communicate to his humanity to make his humanity omnipresent. If it did, we lose our representative High Priest, since we don’t have this attribute communicated to our nature. Christ must always remain as we are in order to be the Priest and Pioneer of our faith. What does all of this mean? Christ’s body cannot be at more than one place at a time, much less at millions of places across the world every Sunday during Mass. In this sense, I believe that any real physical presence view denies the definition of Chalcedon and the principles therein.

There are many more objections that I could bring including Paul’s lack of mentioning it to the Romans (the most comprehensive presentation of the Gospel in the Bible), some issues of anatomy, issues of idolatry, and just some very practical things concerning Holy Orders, church history, and . . . ahem . . . excrement. But I think these five are significant enough to justify a denial of Transubstantiation. While I respect Roman Catholicism a great deal, I must admit how hard it is for me to believe that a doctrine that is so difficult to defend biblically is held to such a degree that abiding anathemas are pronounced on those who disagree.

 


TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: eschatology; rememerance; scripture; truth
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To: Mad Dawg
A cubic object would be a bad marble.

Not to a MineCraft® fanatic!

361 posted on 07/12/2015 3:29:14 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: verga
Take a deep breath. It appears you are somewhat agitated. The RM has stated that these types of discussion are not for every one.

As well, there is an abiding curse (anathema) placed on all Christians who deny this doctrine:


362 posted on 07/12/2015 3:30:14 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: verga
Mgh is playing games with post 171, that quote has not been authenticated yet.

How many years did it take to 'authenticate' what the 3 Portuguese children experienced?

363 posted on 07/12/2015 3:31:26 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Salvation
Just tell your father in law to sit down with a priest and girt that question answered.

That would kinda wrap things up.

364 posted on 07/12/2015 3:32:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: cuban leaf
...but he thinks he’s too stupid to understand it...

Does he VOTE?

Does he 'understand' politics?

365 posted on 07/12/2015 3:33:31 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: CynicalBear; Mark17

Right here it is proven the squirrels make very poor auto mechanics.

All they want to do is get loose with the nuts...

366 posted on 07/12/2015 3:36:42 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: RnMomof7
Do Rc's know what a metaphor is ???

I do!!!

To graze in!

367 posted on 07/12/2015 3:37:28 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: rwa265
1419 Having passed from this world to the Father...

HE's gonna STAY there until the Last Trump sounds!

He no gonna return in a Host!

368 posted on 07/12/2015 3:39:13 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MHGinTN
Gomer would get a tickle out of that ...

Gomer is getting tickled improperly these days (and for a long, LONG time before; too).

We've prayed for the man every time has has made an appearance at the 500 Mile Race.

He's not dead yet; so there is still a little hope!


http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/gomer-pyles-jim-nabors-marries-416768


1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


369 posted on 07/12/2015 3:44:44 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mad Dawg
From this authority the aforesaid heretics have taken occasion to err from evilly understanding Augustine's words.


Don't wanna do THAT!!!


As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18

 

Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

 

Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

 

Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

 

Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

 

Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

 

Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

 

• Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

 

370 posted on 07/12/2015 3:46:41 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mad Dawg
From this authority the aforesaid heretics have taken occasion to ...

Screeching HERETIC! must have been the RACIST!!! of it's day!

371 posted on 07/12/2015 3:47:36 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mad Dawg
If there are, I bet they don’t think that big letters in changing fonts make the argument any better.

Yeah; but it DOES give someone with no answer, an excuse to dismiss WHAT was said out of hand; doesn't it.

372 posted on 07/12/2015 3:48:51 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
Don't over analyze things and attribute motive without knowing for sure.

I believe that accusing someone of "over analyzing" something is mind reading. Didn't you just worn someone not to do that very thing?

373 posted on 07/12/2015 3:55:32 PM PDT by verga (I might as well be playng chess with pigeons.)
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To: CynicalBear
Catholics like to pic an choose which of their leadership should be taken seriously

Can you document that this man is in a position of leadership?

374 posted on 07/12/2015 3:57:37 PM PDT by verga (I might as well be playng chess with pigeons.)
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To: verga; metmom
I believe that accusing someone of "over analyzing" something is mind reading.

Nah, overanalyzing can be objectively measured. Too many words in the analysis document. Too many hours logged doing the analysis. What's going on inside the person's head does not have to be known to reach the conclusion that whatever it is, there's too much of the wrong kind of it. :)

Peace,

SR

375 posted on 07/12/2015 4:15:27 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Elsie; Springfield Reformer

IMPOSSIBLE!!

I agree.

I guess we can find some idiot Catholic writer, bearing a Nihil Obstat and and Imprimatur like some token in a computer game, who will say that Christ is physically present in the Eucharist.

As I said before, when people aren't yelling at the Catholic Church for being rigid and inflexible, they yell at the Catholic Church for being too tolerant. And to me, that's a good suggestion to be Catholic: Everyone hates us.

Something like this is in Chesterton. If the tall say we are too short, the short say we are too tall ... if the thin say we are too stout and the stout say we are too thin ... if the strict say we are too genial and the genial say we are too strict ...
That's not necessarily a bad sign.

We didn't get all Scholastic 'n stuff just to put others down. We wanted to find a way to explain the Gospel to the Gentiles. And some of those Gentiles were pretty smart and thoughtful. You all strain out the gnat of transubstantiation (which is by no means a matter of φύσις or φυσική) while we were struggling to help them deal with the camel of the Resurrection.

Now, consider what we really mean by "physical." I suggest we mean something whose presence is perceived by the sense, by instruments which enhance the senses, or by deductions from what is seen (the "species" in the old sense).

But here is what the "Angelic Doctor" says:

But substance, as such, is not visible to the bodily eye, nor does it come under any one of the senses, nor under the imagination, but solely under the intellect, whose object is "what a thing is" (De Anima iii).
-- III, Q.76. A 7, "Article 7. Whether the body of Christ, as it is in this sacrament, can be seen by any eye, at least by a glorified one?"
Whatever that it, it ain't "physical" as moderns use the term.
376 posted on 07/12/2015 4:22:43 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: Mad Dawg

There is a reality so close to you that someone there could reach across and smack you, but you cannot see that realm because you were fabricated with 4D reality factors. I can prove that realm is there using scriptures, but I cannot show you that realm. Is that realm ‘real’. well, yes and no. It is real when it intersects my realm ... or Belshazzar’s realm. But if something is in that realm is it also in our realm? Can you answer that one cogently ... in 200 words or less, please?


377 posted on 07/12/2015 4:27:16 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: Elsie
I don't know. I think it was "technical" to some extent. Don't let the movies sway you.

YEah, Athanasius was rowdy and supposedly Nicholas popped Aries in the face. But for me it'sreally a categorization of error.

In Augustine's time the questions were "works righeousness" brought to you by Pelagius, and Whether, How, and To What Extent God rejected people who wussed out under the persecutions and then repented (Donatism.)I think those are good questions.

378 posted on 07/12/2015 4:27:28 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: metmom
Except that if you express assurance of your salvation, you are accused of having the sin of *presumption*.

I am happy as a pig in slop, to be guilty of the sin of "presumption" I have assurance of salvation, ergo, I am guilty. It does my heart good. 😂😇😎

379 posted on 07/12/2015 4:52:27 PM PDT by Mark17 (Thy goodness faileth never. Good shepherd may I sing thy praise, within thy house forever. Amen)
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To: cuban leaf
The old testament is about God’s relationship with a nation called Israel. The new testament is about Jesus relationship with me, personally.

I don't think so. The New Covenant is about Christ's relationship is with His Bride, the church, of which you are a member. Is your membership vested in a local, autonomous Biblical church? That is the only organism with members ordained to congregate for teaching and preserving the commandments of Christ (Mt. 28:20a), and for the observation of the Lord's Remembrance Supper (Lk. 22:17-29, 1 Cor. 11:24-26), AFIK.

The impression I get is that the conduct of the rite of communion outside the assembly of the brethren only on your say-so is not the plan or context provided by the Lord's example for it. I am not of the RCC convincement, but I do believe in membership in the local independent church governed by a plurality of spiritual elders as the plan through which the Holy Ghost works into the individual's life.

Take care, bro.

380 posted on 07/12/2015 5:12:49 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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