Is There A Purgatory?

The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.

Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).

Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.

The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).

If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"

Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.

In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.

It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."

No question it was from God.

Oh?

Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.

Ephem: …devotion to the divine Mother…is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.

Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS.

Fulgetius: …by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven.

Athanasius: …And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.

Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.

Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.

Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.

Antoninus: …souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED.

You said, “You’ve not prove that your Christ is the CORRECT one.”

And I have no need to do so.

What is proven or dis-proven is between myself, Jesus and God. They know and I know, that’s all that matters. If you are not experiencing Jesus, it is as though you are holding a beautifully gift wrapped package telling everyone what is inside and how wonderful it is. I prefer to open the package, experience the gift and to be sure. To experience His wonderful Love within me and be within Him is a treasure beyond words.

Why would someone not open the precious gift they think they are holding? Is it out of fear that it is an imitation? Open your heart not to me, but to Jesus who you claim is your Savior. He is here right now. Feel the tension in the middle of your back as you keep the back door to your heart closed to His Love. You don’t have to wait for Him to arrive. He is here and already hears your prayers. In prayer, you can raise your self up to meet and experience your Savior now. If you have difficulty raising up, ask Him for the Holy Spirit to help you. The only reason one could not do this now is if their soul is holding fear, pride or judgment of others creating low attachments which act as an anchor prohibiting them from fulfilling Jesus’ commandment number one, Love God with all. Jesus’ commandment number two, Love thy neighbor is the soul cleansing commandment as life is about finding and removing the obstacles to Love that exist within our souls in order to be like a pure child and raise up with Jesus in knowing Our Father.

I pose the same question to you that you pose to me. How will you know that the Spirit of Jesus is real when you hear and see Him? You will know Him by the fruits that He brings with Him. The same is true of the Love when the Holy spirit touches you. When you are awake, there is no mistaking the real Jesus.

Just as the Pharisees denied and did not recognize Jesus as he did not fit their legalistic perception of what we refer to as the Old Testament, you hold onto the legalistic perception of your scriptures. This is why Jesus told his disciples, I share with you knowledge that you are not to share with others.

The Bible is the word of God. But it is to be read with the hope of a half full glass and not the pessimism of a half empty glass. I’m not telling you to take my words as proof. I’m advising you to read your Bible and go within and ask in prayer for your own guidance.

It has been my experience that those who feel the need to convince others with their words that they are correct are often just trying to convince themselves that they are correct. When I am teaching, I make sure to say, “Don’t believe a word that I say.” “Don’t ever follow me, but follow the path you are already on within yourself to a higher level. Our perception of reality is a function of the level of consciousness from which we view it. You can tune it so low that mole hills appear as mountains, or so high that mountains appear as mole hills. It’s your choice. Exercise your ability and you too will be raised up high enough to see and experience your Savior. That is the rapture spoken of in the Bible.

Blessings on your journey.

You asserted: " Exercise your ability and you too will be raised up high enough to see and experience your Savior. That is the rapture spoken of in the Bible."

You really should stop boasting because the more you post the more obvious it is that you really have not been led by His Spirit, to grow you up in the Way that you should go as a born from above newborn in His family. The Rapture decelared in the Bible is one of snatching those In Christ out of this world before the coming wrath:

Luke 21:35&36 WEB: For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man."
Jon 14:1-4 "Don't let your heart be troubled. Believe in God. Believe also in me. In my Father's house are many homes. If it weren't so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also. Where I go, you know, and you know the way."
1Thessalonians 4:13-18 But we don't want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don't grieve like the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
2 Thess 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him, we ask you 2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, 4he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God. 5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things? 6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. 7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. 8Then the lawless one will be revealed
1Cor 15:51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

THE above verses from the Bible reveal your assertion to be ... unbiblical, perhaps a tradition of magicsteeringthem men.

“I have died in the flesh, not once but several times. I have made the journey to Heaven and returned here. It is not my desire to be here, but my Father’s as I would return to Him in heartbeat if it were my will that mattered.”

After reading your resume a few posts up I thought that nothing could be added, but here we find you even DIE better than the rest of us dolts! But aw shucks, you just HAD to come back to do more soul readings, telekinesis and adjunct lectures on The Neuroscience of Prayer.

Oh, and helping poor souls who “hover on the dreadful shore of Styx” cross over.

Can we be forgiven for naively thinking it was the GOSPEL all those people you mention needed, when it was really YOU all along?

One of the most difficult things to do well is to be an older student coming from a position of rank and then lower one's self to the level of a plebe.

The ego is full of itself and it demands that you be full of it too, so to speak, and really doesn't like "lowering" itself at all and will fight tooth and nail to maintain its position of authority and knowledge.

But, in Scripture we are told not to trust our own understanding and, like the rowdy, smartass, disruptive kid in class, it must be made to sit down and shut up so that learning can continue.

I obviously haven't figured out how to do that very well and frequently get in my own way, but sometimes I get close and slowly I get better at it.

I read the posts from many who post comments here and elsewhere and see that I'm not alone in this inner human struggle.

“I read the posts from many who post comments here and elsewhere and see that I’m not alone in this inner human struggle”

Amen! Guilty!

But GBA, God’s breathed-out Word—I know, THAT again—is brutally clear on what the occult is and what kingdom it emanates from: Satan’s. There is real power there, granted by God, yet forbidden by Him.

Those that do not heed the warning are given some measure of that power and are deluded by it. Like those Jesus rejects at the end, they make great claims of having done good with their power only to find out they didn’t get it from HIM!

“But Satan cannot drive out Satan!” True. But counterfeit signs and wonders ARE NOT DRIVING OUT SATAN, are they? They are furthering his kingdom.

Jesus had true miracle-working power from the Father. It was distinctive and clear, not operating in the shadows. Man born blind given sight. Lazarus dead, buried, then called BACK! Real demons driven OUT at a command. Irrefutable, and thus a hardening judgment against anyone who dared to refute them (and an unforgivable sin for those who attributed them to Satan).

What do you get with the contemporaries of Pharaoh’s magicians? Grand claims that are refutable, as they are only relayed not WITNESSED and VERIFIED. Souls are “read”, objects are moved, dead persons are relocated, memories are “healed”, etc. The stuff of deluded minds who prey on weak people in need. Doesn’t take much in their state to be TOLD they have been freed, only later to struggle with the same thing. Seer long gone, they look for another (and another...).

There is no eternal consequence for refuting these fakes because they ARE operating in Satan’s realm. Brazenly they try to hide behind Jesus but it just doesn’t work on those who know the Scriptures and the power of God!

“Do you believe the vision of Fatima was from God. or Mary?”
No question it was from God.

Your opinion is duly noted.

Fatima info:

Fall of 1916:
The angel appeared to the children and prostrated himself on the ground before a vision of a chalice and host and said, "Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit...
****************************************
Lucia:
"I want you to take us to Heaven."
Our Lady:
"Yes, I will take Francisco and Jacinta soon, but you must remain on earth for some time. Jesus wishes to use you to make me better known and loved. He wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart."

Oh by the way.... angels are also spirits... Under your guidelines, you better not communicate with them.

How pompous.

The Angel that prostrated himself on the ground was not from God.

Mary takes no one to heaven although more than one pope has said that salvation comes from Mary.

Follow the Bible, not apparitions and familiar spirits.

Acts 16:16-18 - And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying...
1 Chronicles 10:13 - So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, [even] against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking [counsel] of [one that had] a familiar spirit, to enquire [of it]

There is more, study it in the Holy Bible, God's word. Do not be hoodwinked by spirits that act like they are from God.

Remember satan can appear as an angel of light.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.--2 Corinthians 11:14
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.---Job 1:7

Satan was cast out (see Rev 12:9) and took many angels with him which are now demons. They love to do apparitions!

Pretty smart to go to little girls who did not test (discern) the spirits that were manipulating them.

Yes, I can see that you see it that way.

To me, life is like we are all watching the same game, but each from different seats all around the stadium.

We each can only see what we see from where we're sitting. Sometimes our view of the action is great, sometimes not so great.

In this, we are watching the same game, but having a different game experience, you know I mean?

From where you're sitting, that's the game and plays you see. That's your game experience. I'd have to be a fool to tell you that you don't see what you see, especially if I'm not sitting and seeing the game from there, too.

And, since you're not sitting where I'm sitting, you'd have to be a fool to tell me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing.

As it is, even the refs on the field get it wrong sometimes.

To have the total picture, the full, complete game experience, we would have to sit in every seat in the stadium. Only then, would we have seen it from all perspectives in the stadium.

Most of us never even think to see the game from another point of view. Most like the view they've always had and they like arguing about it at the bar after the game, online in forums and at work the next day. They can't shift their perspective and don't want to.

I was always jealous of families who passed their season tickets down generation after generation, so I didn't grow up thinking this way. But now I'm glad I didn't inherit the family's season tickets.

I like moving around the stadium and seeing the game from different perspectives.

As long as I'm respectful, people don't seem to mind me sitting with them and often they will show me things I couldn't see in the old family section and row.

I've learned a deeper understanding and appreciation for the game this way and now I better understand why some views are better than others, depending on the play and time on the clock.

Yes, how fitting huh?

Also later Lucia spoke with an apparition calling itself “Christ Child” which pointed her to Mary because of the thorns around her heart. [???]

I spent years studying this and all things Catholic. It wasn’t easy, it was before the internet! If only Al Gore...

Once over two decades ago I was visiting in Santa Cruz and my sister in law grinned and asked

“Are you going to go down to Watsonville where the people are gathering around a tree that “Mary” appeared in?”

She grinned when she said it because she knew I was aware of the deception involved.

Having been in a ministry that satan hated, I have had more close encounters with demons then I wanted.

Not going to go down to see one in a tree!

I believe up thread there is a poster that welcomes the demons to bug him.

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Have you met the 3rd-eye opening people?