Posted on 08/17/2015 6:07:35 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
It is that time of week again, where we talk about the Mary, the Mother of God. This is definitely the single most important title that Mary has. If someone gets this wrong, then they get the Divinity of our Lord wrong, and that means the whole plan of Salvation is just messed up. So let us look at this most important title.
Theotokos, God-bearer in Greek, is what the council of Ephesus declared in 431. It specifically says this “If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema.” Now just that statement alone proves the early Church believed that there was Authority given to the bishops to decide sound doctrine, Mary was a Holy Virgin her entire life, and that She bore God. However, we only have time for one today.
Now many times we will hear non-Catholics tell us that this title is nowhere found in Scripture, explicitly at least. However, they cannot themselves find a Scripture verse that says that all doctrine and dogma must be explicitly proven in Scripture. I bet they can never find that. This is a trap they set up for themselves and it is a very unfair double standard that they expect us to meet, but they do not have to. However, on top of this double standard is if we used that same standard, then the doctrine of the Trinity is thrown out, since it’s not an explicit teaching, but instead is implicit in Scripture. This double standard seems to cause more problems that it’s worth wouldn’t you say?
Here is the cold hard truth of it though, all Christians rely on some Church Tradition, as well as Scripture, to validate their doctrines, whether they admit it or not. With that being said, Scripture and Tradition can never contradict one another. The Traditions of men can contradict the Word of God, but the Traditions God left us, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit, are binding upon us, as we are to hold fast to Traditions. So then, what is the real question? The real question is, Does Scripture contradict the teaching that Mary is the Mother of God, and is that doctrine found in Scripture at least implicitly?
Let us begin with Luke 1:43, where Mary visited Elizabeth. There Elizabeth exclaimed “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because Mary was the Mother of the Lord, who is the Second part of the Holy Trinity, Mary is truly and rightfully called the Mother of God.
We also see in Isaiah 7:14 “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which is interpreted God with us.” Jesus is God. He was God when He was in the womb, conceived, lived, died, buried, resurrected, in the Eucharist, and in Heaven. The Messiah, who is God, was to be born of a virgin, according to Scripture. God was born of a virgin, and it’s right there in Isaiah, who prophesied of Christ birth. That means both Old and New Testament support the Catholic Doctrine of the Mother of God.
However, this may not be enough for some non-Catholics. Some say that Elisabeth called Christ Lord, and not God, saying that Mary was only to give birth to the human child, the Lord Jesus Christ. So then the question becomes, does lord here mean divinity or just authority? Let’s look at the context.
First let us look at 1 Cor. 8:5, which states “Indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” St. Paul makes it clear that Jesus is the one True, Lord, as opposed to all the false ones, that the pagans who converted in Corinth were probably worshiping. So then, they would understand that Jesus is God. This holds true to the Jews who converted too, who would know Deut. 6:4 “Hear, therefore, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.”
So then that brings us back to Luke 1:43. Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. The Mother…Mothers give birth to persons, not natures, let us remember that. Mary did not just give birth to the human nature of Christ, she gave birth to the person of Christ. Christ personhood is Divine, it is God the Son.
Then let us look at 2 Sam. 6:9 where the King, who was David says “How can the ark of the Lord come to me (being the ark of the covenant)” Then in 2 Samuel 616 we see King David leaping in the presence of the Ark, just as John the Baptist did. Then we yet again see another parallel, which says that the ark of the Lord abode in the house of Obededom the Gethite for three months (2 Sam. 6:11), and according to Luke 1:56 Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth about three months. Then, we see that the ark of the covenant carried three items, manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod. These are all types of things Christ are, the Bread of Life, Word made Flesh, and our true High Priest.
Even knowing all this though, there are still those who would deny that Mary is the Mother of God. So then we have to ask, who is Jesus Christ to them? If Mary is not the Mother of God, then who did she give birth to? Many would say it was an earthly human lord, not God. So then, what does that make Christ? If Mary did not give birth to God, then who did she give birth to? Was not Christ God when He was conceived?
If someone says Mary only gave birth to the person of Christ one of two errors, or both could happen, and that is the Denial of the divinity of Christ, and that one would have to say Christ is two distinct persons, and that he is not One. Both were considered heresy in the Early Church. Christ is one Person, with two natures, Divine and Human, which go together and are not separate of one another. If one denies that, the ultimately they are speaking about a different Christ, and St. Paul warns us about that problem, and to not to give heed to them (2 Cor. 11:4).
So then, some say that Mary is the mother of the Trinity if we take it that far, however, this is not true. Mary gave birth to the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2nd Person, who is still God just not the Trinity. However, we must never forget that each Person in the Trinity shares the same Divine Nature and is fully God.
One thing some still point out is that Christ is eternal, so for Mary to be the Mother of God she would have to be God. However the Church does not say Mary is the source of the Divine Nature of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. To better understand this let’s look at humanity. Parents give birth to a person, however they are not the author of life, and certainly did not give the child it’s soul. Thus is true with Mary, she did not give Christ His Divine Nature, though she was the Mother of more than just the human form of Christ, because she gave birth to a person, who was God.
THIS IS MY SON IN WHICH I AM WELL PLEASED.....
I have 3 sons......if any of the three had ever called their mother woman, they would have a hard time sitting for a month....believe me, Jesus, as a child, referred to Mary as mother or mom or whatever Jewish kids called their maternal parent.......and it wasn't woman.
A complete and contrite confession, holding nothing back, works. Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
Isaiah, Catholic chapter, Protestant verses one to two,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
I asked you where you were going with the request to "confess" to your own wordings, and how those are possibly being sought to next apply, in this context, on this thread.
And this is your last chance.
Would you care to address that, and reveal -- right now--- just where you are hoping to drive towards next, or is it still all promises of candy & lovey-dovey too (in the van)?
I feel as if I'm in danger of being molested, while a would-be molester speaks of "love".
However, it is not a sign of disrespect as we understand it might be today.
And this is why we study the Greek. :)
Always good to see you TC.
I didn't say that, you did....I said probably speaking Aramaic....possibly Hebrew but probably not Greek.
Just out of curiosity, why did people, in a minute village in Israel, have to know 3 languages????
If the phrase is so disrespectful for a child, why wasn't it disrespectful for Jesus as an adult to refer to Mary in the same way?
And there are substantial arguments that even if Jesus was speaking Aramaic, there are words in Aramaic that would have retained the distinction between Peter and the Rock anyway. So the retreat to Aramaic buys the “I am of Peter” faction absolutely nothing. For a great study of the issue, see Chrys Caragounis’ book, “Peter and the Rock.”
Which is why we are better off sticking with the words we have been given, inspired in the Greek by the Holy Spirit. Speculation without a solid foundation is a fast track to serious error.
Peace,
SR
WHY should I believe you?
Do you have anything to offer but your opinion?
Bears repeating.
Very close proximity to Cesarea for those in Galilee, and generally being right in the middle of a narrow strip of land that joins continents, and so was heavily travelled by the Romans, Greeks, and others. Israel was an occupied country. You couldn't get by as a merchant if you couldn't talk to your potential customers.
Also remember when Jesus was crucified, the sign calling Him King of the Jews was posted in those three languages. Right in the heart of Israel, Jerusalem. I've been there. It's a small country. Lots of cross-connecting between various people groups, even now. But now of course they all speak English. Latin not so much. :)
Peace,
SR
I would not characterize the distance from the Galil to Caesaera as close proximity, not even via Egged.
LOL, eat your heart out. The Navs are really nice guys, who pointed out the error of my ways. Praise God for that. 😇 Try it, you'll like it. 😎 I inow I do. 😊
I see you avoided my question about what is your plan of salvation. On second thought, don't bother telling me. I am sure I would just disagree with you anyway. Come to think of it, is there even one thing we will ever agree on? Maybe not, but I am OK with that. At the terrible risk of committing the mortal sin of presumption, I will have a nice, sweet eternity. I wonder if others will too, but that's on them. 😆
And the Rock is Jesus Christ not Peter, so that would put the RCC on sand and thus the RCC believers shall be swept away.
Just how many versus does it take for one to see that Jesus Christ is the Rock?
Matthew 7:24-27New International Version (NIV)
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
Matthew 16:18
New International Version
And I tell you that you are Peter (4074 [e], Petros) , and on this rock (4073 [e], Petra)
I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
1 Corinthians 10:4
New International Version
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock (4073 [e], Petras) that accompanied them, and that rock (4073 [e], Petra) was Christ.
1 Peter 2:8
New International Version
and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock (4073 [e], Petra) that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.
Matthew 14:28
New International Version
“Lord, if it’s you,” Peter (4074 [e], Petros) replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”
Deuteronomy 32:4
New International Version
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Deuteronomy 32:15
New International Version
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, they became heavy and sleek. They abandoned the God who made them and rejected the Rock their Savior.
Deuteronomy 32:18
New International Version
You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
Deuteronomy 32:30
New International Version
How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
Deuteronomy 32:31
New International Version
For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.
Deuteronomy 32:37
New International Version
He will say: “Now where are their gods, the rock they took refuge in,
1 Samuel 2:2
New International Version
“There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
2 Samuel 22:2
New International Version
He said: “The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
2 Samuel 22:3
New International Version
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior— from violent people you save me.
2 Samuel 22:32
New International Version
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
2 Samuel 22:47
New International Version
“The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be my God, the Rock, my Savior!
2 Samuel 23:3
New International Version
The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: ‘When one rules over people in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
Psalm 18:2
New International Version
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
Psalm 18:31
New International Version
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
Psalm 18:46
New International Version
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
Psalm 19:14
New International Version
May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
Psalm 28:1
New International Version
Of David. To you, LORD, I call; you are my Rock, do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who go down to the pit.
Psalm 31:2
New International Version
Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
Psalm 31:3
New International Version
Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
Psalm 42:9
New International Version
I say to God my Rock, “Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?”
Psalm 62:2
New International Version
Truly he is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.
Psalm 62:6
New International Version
Truly he is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
Psalm 62:7
New International Version
My salvation and my honor depend on God; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
Psalm 71:3
New International Version
Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.
Psalm 78:35
New International Version
They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.
Psalm 89:26
New International Version
He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’
Psalm 92:15
New International Version
proclaiming, “The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.”
Psalm 94:22
New International Version
But the LORD has become my fortress, and my God the rock in whom I take refuge.
Psalm 95:1
New International Version
Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
Psalm 144:1
New International Version
Of David. Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
Isaiah 8:14
New International Version
He will be a holy place; for both Israel and Judah he will be a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare.
Isaiah 17:10
New International Version
You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress. Therefore, though you set out the finest plants and plant imported vines,
Isaiah 26:4
New International Version
Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD himself, is the Rock eternal.
Isaiah 30:29
New International Version
And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people playing pipes go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.
Isaiah 44:8
New International Version
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
Isaiah 51:1
New International Version
“Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness and who seek the LORD: Look to the rock from which you were cut and to the quarry from which you were hewn;
Habakkuk 1:12
New International Version
LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, you will never die. You, LORD, have appointed them to execute judgment; you, my Rock, have ordained them to punish.
**Any Christian should be able to freely confess these two truths. 1.Mary is the mother of God (with us).
2.Jesus is God the Son.**
Neither phrase is found in the scriptures.
In relative geographical terms, very close, and certainly close enough to have a major impact on language, culture, etc:
http://www.bible-history.com/geography/ancient-israel/israel-first-century.html
But yep, walking that distance would be a good way to burn some calories. :)
Peace,
SR
Yep, a fine group. Founded by an ordinary evangelical church guy, Dawson Trotman: See his interesting biography here:
http://www.discipleshiplibrary.com/pdfs/dawson_trotman_more.pdf
The emphasis was not on any divergent doctrine, but on practical discipleship, taking the Scriptures and making them such an embedded part of your life they would change your life, help you overcome bad habits, help you live according to the standards of Christian life taught in Scripture, and then becoming the sort of person who can help others find that same path to godly living.
But thinking they are some separate denominational group is a misunderstanding. It would be like saying the Gideons are a denomination because they leave Bibles at hotels. It’s just silly. My uncle was a Gideon, a sound Presbyterian, and a godly man.
Peace,
SR
Did you even read John 12:44-50 one time?
You are just spouting your ‘tradition’.
You like to use your three little sentences to claim proof of Mary being ‘mother of God’.
Here’s three little sentences from me.
Jesus Christ was sent from God the Father.
The Holy Ghost is sent from God the Father.
God the Father has one awesome utility belt.
LOL!
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