Posted on 08/17/2015 6:07:35 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
It is that time of week again, where we talk about the Mary, the Mother of God. This is definitely the single most important title that Mary has. If someone gets this wrong, then they get the Divinity of our Lord wrong, and that means the whole plan of Salvation is just messed up. So let us look at this most important title.
Theotokos, God-bearer in Greek, is what the council of Ephesus declared in 431. It specifically says this “If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema.” Now just that statement alone proves the early Church believed that there was Authority given to the bishops to decide sound doctrine, Mary was a Holy Virgin her entire life, and that She bore God. However, we only have time for one today.
Now many times we will hear non-Catholics tell us that this title is nowhere found in Scripture, explicitly at least. However, they cannot themselves find a Scripture verse that says that all doctrine and dogma must be explicitly proven in Scripture. I bet they can never find that. This is a trap they set up for themselves and it is a very unfair double standard that they expect us to meet, but they do not have to. However, on top of this double standard is if we used that same standard, then the doctrine of the Trinity is thrown out, since it’s not an explicit teaching, but instead is implicit in Scripture. This double standard seems to cause more problems that it’s worth wouldn’t you say?
Here is the cold hard truth of it though, all Christians rely on some Church Tradition, as well as Scripture, to validate their doctrines, whether they admit it or not. With that being said, Scripture and Tradition can never contradict one another. The Traditions of men can contradict the Word of God, but the Traditions God left us, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit, are binding upon us, as we are to hold fast to Traditions. So then, what is the real question? The real question is, Does Scripture contradict the teaching that Mary is the Mother of God, and is that doctrine found in Scripture at least implicitly?
Let us begin with Luke 1:43, where Mary visited Elizabeth. There Elizabeth exclaimed “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because Mary was the Mother of the Lord, who is the Second part of the Holy Trinity, Mary is truly and rightfully called the Mother of God.
We also see in Isaiah 7:14 “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which is interpreted God with us.” Jesus is God. He was God when He was in the womb, conceived, lived, died, buried, resurrected, in the Eucharist, and in Heaven. The Messiah, who is God, was to be born of a virgin, according to Scripture. God was born of a virgin, and it’s right there in Isaiah, who prophesied of Christ birth. That means both Old and New Testament support the Catholic Doctrine of the Mother of God.
However, this may not be enough for some non-Catholics. Some say that Elisabeth called Christ Lord, and not God, saying that Mary was only to give birth to the human child, the Lord Jesus Christ. So then the question becomes, does lord here mean divinity or just authority? Let’s look at the context.
First let us look at 1 Cor. 8:5, which states “Indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” St. Paul makes it clear that Jesus is the one True, Lord, as opposed to all the false ones, that the pagans who converted in Corinth were probably worshiping. So then, they would understand that Jesus is God. This holds true to the Jews who converted too, who would know Deut. 6:4 “Hear, therefore, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.”
So then that brings us back to Luke 1:43. Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. The Mother…Mothers give birth to persons, not natures, let us remember that. Mary did not just give birth to the human nature of Christ, she gave birth to the person of Christ. Christ personhood is Divine, it is God the Son.
Then let us look at 2 Sam. 6:9 where the King, who was David says “How can the ark of the Lord come to me (being the ark of the covenant)” Then in 2 Samuel 616 we see King David leaping in the presence of the Ark, just as John the Baptist did. Then we yet again see another parallel, which says that the ark of the Lord abode in the house of Obededom the Gethite for three months (2 Sam. 6:11), and according to Luke 1:56 Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth about three months. Then, we see that the ark of the covenant carried three items, manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod. These are all types of things Christ are, the Bread of Life, Word made Flesh, and our true High Priest.
Even knowing all this though, there are still those who would deny that Mary is the Mother of God. So then we have to ask, who is Jesus Christ to them? If Mary is not the Mother of God, then who did she give birth to? Many would say it was an earthly human lord, not God. So then, what does that make Christ? If Mary did not give birth to God, then who did she give birth to? Was not Christ God when He was conceived?
If someone says Mary only gave birth to the person of Christ one of two errors, or both could happen, and that is the Denial of the divinity of Christ, and that one would have to say Christ is two distinct persons, and that he is not One. Both were considered heresy in the Early Church. Christ is one Person, with two natures, Divine and Human, which go together and are not separate of one another. If one denies that, the ultimately they are speaking about a different Christ, and St. Paul warns us about that problem, and to not to give heed to them (2 Cor. 11:4).
So then, some say that Mary is the mother of the Trinity if we take it that far, however, this is not true. Mary gave birth to the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2nd Person, who is still God just not the Trinity. However, we must never forget that each Person in the Trinity shares the same Divine Nature and is fully God.
One thing some still point out is that Christ is eternal, so for Mary to be the Mother of God she would have to be God. However the Church does not say Mary is the source of the Divine Nature of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. To better understand this let’s look at humanity. Parents give birth to a person, however they are not the author of life, and certainly did not give the child it’s soul. Thus is true with Mary, she did not give Christ His Divine Nature, though she was the Mother of more than just the human form of Christ, because she gave birth to a person, who was God.
Isn't that projecting a bit?
Not one person has ever said or exhibited anything connected with fear about Mary.
Why presume that's what the issue is with some people objecting to the over-exaltation of Mary, beyond what is justified by Scripture?
Not nearly as often as the number of Hail Mary's like when someone is saying the rosary.
Saying that Mary is the mother of God is not merely saying that she was the God bearer. It goes well beyond that.
Nor did Mary bear God. She bore God Incarnate. She's the mother of Jesus, as the Holy Spirit refers to her in Scripture, not the mother of God as the Catholic church invented later.
Isaiah 7:14:Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Luke 1:43:And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Worse yet - being told to say n-number of "Hail Mary" prayers as "PENANCE" after confession. "For your penance, say 6 'Hail Marys', a couple of 'Our Fathers' and a good 'Act of Contrition'" - then you're good 'til we meet again in this box.
pen·ance
noun
noun: penance; plural noun: penances
1. voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.
So, the prayer - is a punishment?
**You deny the Trinity**
What....don’t tell me you’re going full democrat on me, and attacking the messenger? Are my questions that hard to answer?
I define God the way the scriptures define God.
God the Father.
The Son of God (the phrase ‘God the Son’ is not in the scriptures).
The Spirit of God (the phrase ‘God the Holy Spirit’ is not in the scriptures.)
You seem to insist that Jesus Christ be separate and distinct from the Father. The only thing separate and distinct is that the flesh (with a soul) was created, and died (but God raised him up).
You seem to insist that the Word be separate and distinct from the Father, when actually the Son declared that the words he spoke were not his, but the Father’s. Just like your words are yours (when not quoting someone else). But in your absence (invisible, if you please), someone can speak your message for you, if you give them the words.
Do you insist that the biceps, triceps, hamstrings, etc. of the Son, is God?
Jesus Christ, and the apostles John and Paul, declare that God is invisible. The Son is a visible manifestation of the invisible God, and created by God to display God’s unlimited attributes to man. And God has chosen to give this man all power in heaven and in earth.
While I have much more, my time is extremely limited. I work tomorrow. But possibly Sunday I can do more.
Recommended reading: John 12:44-50 and 14:6-11
Immanuel = “God with us”
The Greek word for *Lord* is not *Theou* (God) but *Kyriou* (Lord)
That verse in Luke proves nothing to support that Elizabeth means *God* when she says *Lord* because she never used the word for God.
And if you don’t do what the priest tells you to do, your sins are not forgiven.
Forgiveness by it’s very nature, is freely given. It is never earned or worked for. It’s release from a debt owed. Making someone pay a debt in the form of penance, is NOT forgiveness.
What is incorrect?
I was just thinking the other day in response to some articles on this subject that the Catholic charge against Bible-believing Protestants makes no sense. We DO believe Mary is “the mother of God” in the sense that we believe that Jesus was and is God. We aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses, for example. Jesus was and is God, and Mary is His mother. Through her, God entered the world in human form. We agree with all that, and that’s one of the things we actually agree on in a formal sense.
And interestingly, too, Wikipedia says that “Theotokos” means something like “the one who gives birth to God,” rather than “Mother of God.” To that, Catholics would say, “mother” means “one who gives birth to.” Yet, the word “mother” isn’t used. So why should they have trouble with Protestants saying to them that Mary is the mother of Jesus, or the Christ? After all, even if the word God isn’t used, we believe Jesus Christ is God, so it is implicit in the belief that Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, and hence, God - so long as someone believes that Jesus was and is God.
And then, furthermore, they say they believe just as we do - that Mary isn’t the mother of the eternal God. That isn’t what they mean by “Mother of God.” They mean that she is the mother of the Son of God in His Incarnation.
A lot of the controversy seems to involve the difficult nature of the Trinity, because the essential stated beliefs are the same.
The problem I believe we have as Protestants is that despite what Catholics say, in practice they treat Mary as God in many respects.
Bingo!
False; you added to the scripture by substituting the word "ye" for "he" and thus making it nonsense. I overlooked your capitializations and bolding which were your enhancements not found in the translation.
#2 I don't need to link or proofread or correct it. It's word for word.
False, you referenced an "NKJ" version that does not exist. Had you meant he NKJV version, your translation also does not match it.
#3 So, I'm guessing you're all out of accusations, answers or misdirection for me because Scripture proves me right and you wrong.
False, you added to the scripture and misattributed the translation; instead of correctly handling the scripture you doubled down and rejected correction.
You posted:
To: af_vet_1981 By sticking with Sola Scriptura we are on firm footing.
False; neither the Messiah nor the apostles gave that doctrine; it came along almost fifteen centuries later.
Proverbs 30:5,6 "Every Word of God is pure. He is a shield to them that put their trust in Him. Add thou NOT unto His Words, lest ye reprove thee, and thou be found a liar".
537 posted on 8/21/2015, 1:31:29 PM by BipolarBob (Hillary for prison in 2016!)
To: af_vet_1981; Elsie
NKJ version. Your Catholic Bible may have it worded/edited differently for doctrinal purposes.
555 posted on 08/21/2015 12:43:53 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Hillary for prison in 2016!)
I thought you would appreciate that bit of humor.
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
af_vet_1981 from post 592 False; you added to the scripture by substituting the word "ye" for "he" and thus making it nonsense. I overlooked your capitializations and bolding which were your enhancements not found in the translation.
af_vet_1981 in post 594 Since you mangled the scripture and refused to correct it I will post it correctly with proper attribution.
......Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Add not any thing to his words, lest thou be reproved, and found a liar: (Proverbs 30:6) Douay-Rheims
Looks like you deviated from the approved catholic bible also!
Mary is not dead, first of all, because NOBODY is dead.
What chapter did you mean to say?
But then one would be misspelling Balaam's name.
(Num 22:32b)
“Behold, I have come out to oppose you because your way is perverse before me.”
Well, goody for you. Did you learn anything from the text? Does the Word of God mean anything to you? You quibble over trivialities and miss the substance. You strain at a gnat and swallow the camel.
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