Posted on 08/17/2015 6:07:35 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
It is that time of week again, where we talk about the Mary, the Mother of God. This is definitely the single most important title that Mary has. If someone gets this wrong, then they get the Divinity of our Lord wrong, and that means the whole plan of Salvation is just messed up. So let us look at this most important title.
Theotokos, God-bearer in Greek, is what the council of Ephesus declared in 431. It specifically says this “If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema.” Now just that statement alone proves the early Church believed that there was Authority given to the bishops to decide sound doctrine, Mary was a Holy Virgin her entire life, and that She bore God. However, we only have time for one today.
Now many times we will hear non-Catholics tell us that this title is nowhere found in Scripture, explicitly at least. However, they cannot themselves find a Scripture verse that says that all doctrine and dogma must be explicitly proven in Scripture. I bet they can never find that. This is a trap they set up for themselves and it is a very unfair double standard that they expect us to meet, but they do not have to. However, on top of this double standard is if we used that same standard, then the doctrine of the Trinity is thrown out, since it’s not an explicit teaching, but instead is implicit in Scripture. This double standard seems to cause more problems that it’s worth wouldn’t you say?
Here is the cold hard truth of it though, all Christians rely on some Church Tradition, as well as Scripture, to validate their doctrines, whether they admit it or not. With that being said, Scripture and Tradition can never contradict one another. The Traditions of men can contradict the Word of God, but the Traditions God left us, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit, are binding upon us, as we are to hold fast to Traditions. So then, what is the real question? The real question is, Does Scripture contradict the teaching that Mary is the Mother of God, and is that doctrine found in Scripture at least implicitly?
Let us begin with Luke 1:43, where Mary visited Elizabeth. There Elizabeth exclaimed “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because Mary was the Mother of the Lord, who is the Second part of the Holy Trinity, Mary is truly and rightfully called the Mother of God.
We also see in Isaiah 7:14 “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which is interpreted God with us.” Jesus is God. He was God when He was in the womb, conceived, lived, died, buried, resurrected, in the Eucharist, and in Heaven. The Messiah, who is God, was to be born of a virgin, according to Scripture. God was born of a virgin, and it’s right there in Isaiah, who prophesied of Christ birth. That means both Old and New Testament support the Catholic Doctrine of the Mother of God.
However, this may not be enough for some non-Catholics. Some say that Elisabeth called Christ Lord, and not God, saying that Mary was only to give birth to the human child, the Lord Jesus Christ. So then the question becomes, does lord here mean divinity or just authority? Let’s look at the context.
First let us look at 1 Cor. 8:5, which states “Indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” St. Paul makes it clear that Jesus is the one True, Lord, as opposed to all the false ones, that the pagans who converted in Corinth were probably worshiping. So then, they would understand that Jesus is God. This holds true to the Jews who converted too, who would know Deut. 6:4 “Hear, therefore, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.”
So then that brings us back to Luke 1:43. Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. The Mother…Mothers give birth to persons, not natures, let us remember that. Mary did not just give birth to the human nature of Christ, she gave birth to the person of Christ. Christ personhood is Divine, it is God the Son.
Then let us look at 2 Sam. 6:9 where the King, who was David says “How can the ark of the Lord come to me (being the ark of the covenant)” Then in 2 Samuel 616 we see King David leaping in the presence of the Ark, just as John the Baptist did. Then we yet again see another parallel, which says that the ark of the Lord abode in the house of Obededom the Gethite for three months (2 Sam. 6:11), and according to Luke 1:56 Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth about three months. Then, we see that the ark of the covenant carried three items, manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod. These are all types of things Christ are, the Bread of Life, Word made Flesh, and our true High Priest.
Even knowing all this though, there are still those who would deny that Mary is the Mother of God. So then we have to ask, who is Jesus Christ to them? If Mary is not the Mother of God, then who did she give birth to? Many would say it was an earthly human lord, not God. So then, what does that make Christ? If Mary did not give birth to God, then who did she give birth to? Was not Christ God when He was conceived?
If someone says Mary only gave birth to the person of Christ one of two errors, or both could happen, and that is the Denial of the divinity of Christ, and that one would have to say Christ is two distinct persons, and that he is not One. Both were considered heresy in the Early Church. Christ is one Person, with two natures, Divine and Human, which go together and are not separate of one another. If one denies that, the ultimately they are speaking about a different Christ, and St. Paul warns us about that problem, and to not to give heed to them (2 Cor. 11:4).
So then, some say that Mary is the mother of the Trinity if we take it that far, however, this is not true. Mary gave birth to the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2nd Person, who is still God just not the Trinity. However, we must never forget that each Person in the Trinity shares the same Divine Nature and is fully God.
One thing some still point out is that Christ is eternal, so for Mary to be the Mother of God she would have to be God. However the Church does not say Mary is the source of the Divine Nature of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. To better understand this let’s look at humanity. Parents give birth to a person, however they are not the author of life, and certainly did not give the child it’s soul. Thus is true with Mary, she did not give Christ His Divine Nature, though she was the Mother of more than just the human form of Christ, because she gave birth to a person, who was God.
Biblically right.
But what does ROME teach??
Wesleyan.
Have at it...
Thank you for your opinion as one that is one of those other RCs call Protestant, since you do not obey the papal teaching that the flock is to simply follow the pastors (at least modern popes), and give religious assent to basically all public papal teaching, but like a fund. evangelical Prot you seek to ascertain the validity of church teaching by examination of the support for it.
We examine Scripture and can differ one some things (while yet being more unified on basic beliefs than those Rome holds as members) and you interpret past church teaching contrary to V2 in some things, and that it demands assent, while other RCs follow the V2 and modern teaching.
I am not saying you are wrong in your conclusions about RC teaching, but it leaves it open to interpretation, even to the validity of the pope (are your a SSPX or SSPV type RC?).
Devout Catholic Scriptural commentators for the past 500 years have seen
And Rome made much use of forgeries while RCs are still parroting specious idea and sppsd quotes Luther or misrepresenting them . See here .
If you reject modern scholarship even if sanctioned by Rome then you are one of the many sects in Rome, each excommunicating each other.
Are you speaking for metmom, yourself or both?
God is eternal and Mary is not, that’s heretical!
A mere argument by assertion, while in reality the church of Rome stands in such a degree of deformation that it is largely invisible (and contrary to) the NT church.
The very basis for RC assurance of Truth is contrary to how the Church began.
Yes.
Not Catholic. It depends on where I am that Sunday.
I travel a lot. I go to where ever I find a good church in the location I’m at.
I go because I want to, not because I think I have to.
If I didn’t feel like going, I wouldn’t and it would not affect my salvation one iota.
I doubt that you do or can since Catholics have been raised from birth being taught that not going to church is a mortal sin. I have serious doubts that a Catholic can understand the freedom in Christ to not be bound by religious obligations as established by their church.
OK. I said I’d be back when I’d have the time (I have too many ‘irons in the fire’).
Do you read John 12:44-50 and 14:6-11?
First of all, the fact there is such a debate as this thread, proves that there is NOT a universal agreement between trinitarians concerning the ‘trinity’.
Secondly, I know trinitarians that understand that the Father is the source of all things divine, yet believe that the Son and Holy Ghost are ‘separate, co-equal’ and ‘co-eternal’ with the Father. Many folks ‘see’ a ‘Father’, ‘Son’, and ‘Holy Spirit’, but don’t see the power structure that the Son teaches in John.
On this earth, your soul is what is eternal, the body is perishable. Your soul is only made known to others by physical presense (manifestation), and the thoughts of the soul are made known by speaking from the physical body. That is how God has manifested himself; by doing so in sundry times, and diverse manners, SPEAKING to us by the prophets. But in these last days, has spoken to us by his Son, who said many things, like this:
“My doctrine is NOT mine, but HIS that SENT me. If any man will do HIS will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of GOD, or whether I speak of myself.” John 7:16,17
The Father is the source. He’s IN the Son, without measure, as the Holy Ghost. Peter told Cornelius household: “How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good...healing...for God was with him...Him God raised up...it is he that was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.” Acts 10:38-43
Here’s a list of words and references, showing who was the original provider of knowledge (and all other things divine as well):
gave: 3:16, 10:29, 12:49, 14:31
gavest: 17:4,6,8,12,22, 18:9
give: 14:6, 15:16, 16:23
given: 3:35, 5:26,27,36, 6:39,65, 7:39, 13:3, 17:2(2),7,8,9,11,24(2)
received: 10:18
send: 14:26, 15:26, 17:8, Acts 3:20
sent: 3:17,34, 4:34, 5:23,24,30,36,37,38, 6:29,38,39,40,44,57, 7:16,18,28,29,33, 8:16,18,26,29,42, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44,45,49, 13:16,20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3,18,21,23,25, 20:21
will (noun): 4:34, 5:30(2), 6:38,39,40, 7:17
will (verb): 5:20, 11:22, 12:26, 14:26, 15:26, 16:23
word and words (actually there are others that should be included, but the Son made it clear in the following ones whose ‘words’ they were): 3:34, 14:24, 17:6,8,14,17
work and works: 4:34, 5:20,36(2), 9:4, 10:25,37,38, 14:10, 17:4
That’s over 100 references (from the book of John alone) showing that the Son’s source of ALL things divine, ALL power, ALL wisdom, etc., is from God the Father. There are plenty more alluding to the same.
BUT......here is a question for you: With your separate and distinct persons of God theology; can you quote a scripture that shows the FATHER receiving anything divine from the Son?
When you place the Father (Spirit) in the Son (divinely created flesh, with a soul), you have defined Jesus Christ in the simplest of terms. If that sounds familiar, just read 1 Tim. 3:16. (It says “God was manifest IN the flesh..”, not, “God was manifest AS flesh..”.)
I'm not surprised, The Church of Me.
Wow, that’s like a weeks worth of great sermons rolled into one quick lesson for Bible study! Thanks for the extensive post.
I belong to Jesus, not a church.
That makes me part of the body of Christ, not a religious denomination or church organization.
Are you at your church every time the doors are open? 100% with no misses??
**I’m not surprised, The Church of Me.**
As an OTR truck driver, I can tell you that there are plenty of folks that have to have church ‘service’ wherever they can.
I also know RCs that attend their regular church for the ‘mass’ alone, because they are taught that it’s a life or death matter. Many slip in late, and slip out after ‘mass’. I had an RC friend that liked the bigger RC congregations for the simple fact he could be there in time for the ‘meal’, and the leave almost unnoticed.
Yes, and that includes you and all men.
Are you at your church every time the doors are open? 100% with no misses??
Yes, on all Sundays and all Holy Days of Obligation.
There is no “meal” at a Cathoic Mass. There is a sacrifice.
That’s one of the big differences between the Prots and Catholics.
You are so wrong; I had assumed you were one of the Protestants that believed in the major historical doctrines of Christianity, so no, I actually expected you to take some responsibility to warn your fellow Protestants against the heresy of denying the Holy Trinity.
In addition, A criticizing me as one who should have paid attention and cared about the drift towards heresy is saying i not only did not pay attention but did not care, the latter of which means you know my motive for lack of attention.
It is occurring right under your nose, so to speak. Why do you not comment on, and correct, your fellow Protestants' doctrinal errors ? This is the Achilles' Heel of the Protestants.
What happens if you miss?
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