Posted on 02/04/2016 12:39:52 PM PST by metmom
**There is one holy catholic apostolic church in actual recorded history.**
The true, doctrinally correct church in the NT epistles doesn’t use the phrase, God the Son. It’s not there.
**And did preserve;**
God uses all sorts of means to preserve his word. Egypt preserved Israel though the famine. Ravens preserved Elijah through another famine. Egypt preserved the child Jesus from Herod.
**Then there is no need for you to teach any doctrine, since it is already provided by God.**
Then why do you change it with your unscriptural phrases?
Your adjusting of Mary’s position:
**Miriam/Mary as the Mother of “God with us” is certainly in the scriptures.**
........is classic word play. Do you not believe that the Father is in Christ, giving him the divine words and doing the divine works, and giving him absolute power? That’s how the invisible God appeared to man in these last days (Heb. 1:1,2). Or do you not believe John chapter 14?
**What the Apostle to the Gentiles taught was true, whether you search the scriptures daily to see if you agree with him or not.**
Paul never used the phrase, God the Son, and as far as I recall never even mentioned the name of Mary. Nothing personal, but I trust Paul’s understanding of the Godhead MUCH more than I trust your organization’s opinion on the subject.
Are you af vet 1981 of Free Republic, or Free Republic the af vet 1981?
I think we are starting to repeat ourselves. I would appreciate learning more specifically about who you believe Jesus is.
You have made it obvious you reject the divinity of Christ, but do seem to agree He is a separate person from the Father.
I guess I am wondering:
Did Jesus exist before being born to Mary?
If he did exist before being born as a baby, was he created by the Father?
Was he an angel like Satan before becoming man?
It helps me if you can answer yes or no to the above and then go on to explain.
Thanks again for the discussion.
**Did Jesus exist before being born to Mary?
If he did exist before being born as a baby, was he created by the Father?**
Yes.
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:” Col. 1:15.
“..These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;” Rev. 3:14
**Was he an angel like Satan before becoming man?**
Yes.
“being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.” Heb. 1:4
I’ve posted quite a bit in this back and forth. If you go back and read them, I think that you will see that I’ve tried to cover the subject. But, I don’t recall quoting Hebrews 1:4 to you. Note that the Son inherited his name from God.
Thank you for the questions.
**3.Therefore Yeshua/Jesus is Immanuel/Emmanuel, Yeshua/Jesus is “God with us,” and Mary/Miriam is the mother of “God with us.”**
Mary is the mother of the Son of God, not God the Son. Mary made no divine contribution to the Godhead. Even the Son pointed out his Father as source of all things divine, with his many testimonies in the Gospels. Hebrews 1:4 says that he even inherited his name (which Jesus Christ claimed in John 5:43; “I am come in my Father’s name”).
Elizabeth’s testimony, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, was that of Mary being made the “mother of my Lord”. The Son was made Lord by the Father dwelling him:
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Acts 2:36
**4.It is in the scriptures, which one needs believe of his own volition, cooperating with the grace of God.**
That is why I encouraged you to believe the Son’s words in John chapter 14. For some brevity, start with verse 6. Look at what he says in verse 7:
“If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye KNOW him, and have SEEN him.”
Philip still didn’t understand, and (like a Trinitarian, looking for a separate image of the Father) asked, “Shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.”
To which Jesus replied, “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known ME, Philip? he that hath SEEN me hath SEEN the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou NOT that I am IN the Father, and the Father IN me? the words that I speak unto you I speak NOT of myself: but the Father that dwelleth IN me, HE doeth the works.”
I ask you: Where is the Father NOT present?
I said , Yes, to this:
**Was he an angel like Satan before becoming man?**
..which should have been, No, since in Hebrews 1:4, the Son is said to be MADE so much BETTER than the angels.
Sorry about that. I guess that was affirming that I had a scriptural answer in my mind, before even quoting the verse.
Mary is the Mother of Immanuel, which the scriptures explicitly translate as "God with us."
I ask you: Where is the Father NOT present? And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty seven, Protestant verse forty six,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
You still have not answered which denomination or sect you assemble with, leading me to conclude it must be a cult.
**Mary is the Mother of Immanuel, which the scriptures explicitly translate as “God with us.”**
Once again I ask: what divine quality did Mary create in the Son?
She was mother to a child to be called Immanuel. She didn’t make him “God with us”. God the Father did that. She was used to help make an earthly habitation for the invisible God. You see,.......
..**You still have not answered**..
..this’
That is why I encouraged you to believe the Son’s words in John chapter 14. For some brevity, start with verse 6. Look at what he says in verse 7:
“If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye KNOW him, and have SEEN him.”
Philip still didn’t understand, and (like a Trinitarian, looking for a separate image of the Father) asked, “Shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.”
To which Jesus replied, “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known ME, Philip? he that hath SEEN me hath SEEN the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou NOT that I am IN the Father, and the Father IN me? the words that I speak unto you I speak NOT of myself: but the Father that dwelleth IN me, HE doeth the works.”
You said this a while back....
**It is in the scriptures, which one needs believe of his own volition, cooperating with the grace of God.**
....So, I’m trying to get you to take the whole of scripture, and not a single verse as you did here:
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Are you saying that the Father was not in the Son at that time? Or, are the scriptures showing that the Christ no longer SENSED the power of God in him?
Jesus Christ told his disciples in Samaria: “I have meat that ye know not of.” (from Jn 4:32)
He knew when virtue had left his body to heal someone, as was the case of the woman, with the issue of blood, that touched his garment. He pulled loaf after loaf, fish after fish, out of a little basket. He experienced the transformation witnessed by Peter and John. He knew that Lazarus was dead without any earthly person informing him, and on and on.
On top of the extreme physical and mental torture he was going through on the cross, he had to also go through the pain of realizing that the “meat”, that the disciples knew not of, was not going to sustain his body on the cross. It had to be. God was not going to constantly generate oxygen rich blood in his body. He had to die.
Impossible as it is for us, try to imagine having that kind of power placed in your body, and after three plus years, suddenly not feeling it anymore.
The scriptures don’t plainly say that God left his body, just that the Son asked God why he had forsaken him. But, I have felt that that was literally the case; and that the Father didn’t re-enter that body until he wanted to raise it up from the dead.
**You still have not answered which denomination or sect you assemble with, leading me to conclude it must be a cult.**
A cult, that uses the Bible as a foundation, avoids certain scriptures for the sake of maintaining their interpretations. Or they add to it, with so called visions that lead to additional words and books (that change original doctrine), supposedly from God.
I assemble with oneness Pentecostals. But, regardless of my spiritual condition, one could be only looking for a payday (look at Balaam). So that doesn’t matter if I happen to just be a messenger (relay) pointing out the Word. I can go anywhere in the scriptures that you choose to go in a Godhead debate, and prove by the whole of the scriptures, that God the Father is invisible, and is THE source of all things divine (James 1:17).
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
**Once again I ask: what divine quality did Mary create in the Son?
Rhetorical question**
That’s not a real answer, just a dodge, like the complete dodging of John chapter 14.
**No, God the Son is always one with God the Father.**
Still using the “God the Son” phrase that Jesus Christ and his apostles NEVER used? You like to insist that the RCC preserved the scriptures, but the RCC prefers to modify it to match it’s interpretations (God [the Son].....466).
**Do you think the Father was crucified on the cross ?**
You use RCC interpretation to answer your own question, and still fail to answer it. Should I assume that you will get hung up on that, and ignore the NAME issue?....that I will now address:
And again you use one verse (Matt 18:19, which had the highlighted words) to attempt to make an indisputable position, and again throwing assorted teachings of Jesus Christ and his apostles under the bus:
Luke 24:47 “...it behoved Christ...And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem”.
(what is Christ’s name?)
(fast forward to Jerusalem)
Acts 2:38 “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..”.
Acts 8:16 “(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)”
Acts 10:48 “And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...”.
(What is the name of the Lord, if thou canst tell?)
Acts 19:5 “...they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus”.
Acts 22:16 “...be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord”.
(which Lord would that be?)
Romans 6:3 “Know ye not, that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
1 Cor. 1:13 “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you, or were ye baptized in the name of Paul.”
(think on that one for a minute, please.)
Col. 2:11,12 “...putting off the body of sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism,...”.
(what is Christ’s name?)
Matt. 28:19 “..baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”
The name of the Father (I’m showing you a classic example of using the whole of scriptures; in other words: not leaving out verses like the two following ones):
John 5:43 “I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.” (The Christ is testifying there, that his name is not his own.)
Hebrews 1:1-4 “God....spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,....made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they”.
(He inherited his name from who?)
The name of the Son:
Matt. 1:21,25 “..shalt call his name JESUS..”. “..called his name JESUS.”
Luke 1:31 “..and shalt call his name JESUS”. Luke 2:21 “..his name was called JESUS,..”.
The name of the Holy Ghost (the name that it is sent by):
John 14:26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name...”.
If the RCC ever taught the above teachings, they certainly don’t now, and haven’t for quite a while.
The above teachings did not begin....
**in Los Angeles on April 15, 1913**
I’m a father, son, and husband, but those aren’t my name. Repeating a command isn’t necessarily following a command. The various baptism results listed above prove that.
Here’s an example: A small trucking company I drove for has a boss that could very easily have give me instructions like this; “when you get to the location to pick up the new truck, you have authorization to sign the name of the founder, general manager, and chief mechanic, to the buyers agreement........”. That just so happened to be one name.
Jesus Christ didn’t fail in teaching his apostles. They got it right. It’s just that the devil hates the name of JESUS. I don’t think that I have ever heard someone curse God, saying: bleep, bleep, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Not saying it hasn’t happened, I just haven’t heard it.
**a modern, heretical devolution from Protestantism.**
Which of us is using unscriptural phrases, and avoiding some scriptures altogether? (still waiting on your assessment of John 14)
A movement can have a huge following for a long, long time, and be wrong. Just look at Islam (I know, an extreme example).
“because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Matt. 7:14
Cheerio!
Your tag line is the essence of the New Testament and a mystery to so many who seem driven to focus the attention of others on the supporting text at the price of missing just what Peter’s ‘Key’ actually represents.
His tag line refers to scripture that is an explicit promise to the house of Israel.
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. [30] And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
**authentic Christianity**.....
doesn’t invent Godhead phrases that are not found in the scriptures,.....
..and doesn’t dodge John chapter 14, until after four requests. And then finally all you say is that you believe it. Prove it by quoting John 4:9,10,and 11, and say “I believe that with all my heart”. (I am convinced by your actions thus far, that you really wish that those verses didn’t exist.)
You reply to my list, of proof of the name of Jesus used in water baptism,...
**with twenty centuries of**..SCRIPTURAL Christian doctrine staring you down......
..with a quoting of scriptures giving various names of God???
You brought up Matt. 28:19. Now own it as PART of the instructions given to the apostles, AND FOLLOWED by them perfectly. FOR they were to open the door to this ‘new and living way’ (they were given the keys). They baptized in the name of Jesus everywhere they went. Furthermore.....
...Peter said, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved”. Acts 4:12
I have no doubt that the disciples were quite aware of the various other names that you chose to quote, even before meeting the Lord Jesus. It was he, that made it known unto them, the NAME of God that was previously unknown to them:
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word”. John 17:6
Did the Son of God inherit the name of JESUS? Yes or no.
**When your mind’s made up**
IMO, I stay on subject better than you. You want to use man’s history to make doctrinal disputations, instead of proving by the scriptures that your church organization isn’t teaching erroneously.
Cheerio
Yes, it is the essence of the New Testament. The ‘keys’ were introduced that day, and still are today. The rebirth is still required by God. We are still in that ‘day’ until the ‘trump of God sounds’.
God bless!
"I love the LORD my God with all my heart, soul, and strength." That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
John, Catholic chapter four, Protestant verses nine to eleven,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
Matthew, Catholic chapter six, Protestant verses five to fifteen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James,
boldness and underline emphasis mine
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Sorry, busy weekend away from the pc, and only have a few minutes.
**1.Do you obey this scripture ?**
Not as much as I should.
**Do you pray the “Our Father” on a regular basis ?**
It is of course the great example, set forth by the Expert. I find it to be a good prayer IF I’m praying it in earnest, thinking on each line and how it applies to my own situation in this world. If I just pray it to achieve a sense of religiosity, then I’m not really praying.
**2.Who did the Messiah pray to ?**
To the Father, of course, while in the flesh.
When you no longer need help, you no longer ask for it. The Son no longer needs help overcoming the flesh, and has been given all power to be the mediator for those still in need of divine help and deliverance.
**3.Who do you pray to ?
The Son is still in the Father, and the Father in him; the fullness of the Godhead bodily. I can pray to God, addressing him with titles, but always in the name of Jesus.
John 14:21-24 doesn’t take away the source of all words and power from the Father, as seen in verse 24:
“He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the WORD which ye hear is NOT mine, BUT the FATHER’S which sent me.” (my caps)
The struggle for physical man to comprehend the invisible domain of God is shown in verse 22:
“Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?”
The Christ explains that he will be manifest in a new way to them. He had to go away in order for his mind to be multiplied infinitely. That’s why the Comforter could not come until the Son departed from their sight. He told them:
“I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.” John 14:18
Just like the Son, this manifestation will not promote a mind of his own, but only what he shall hear, that shall he speak (Jn 14:13).
It still boils down to God the Father being supreme in all things, using such exquisite, and mind blowing methods to commune with his creation.
Been away for a few days but wanted to thank you for your answers to my questions.
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
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