Equality of the Trinity

From: The Trinity

INTRODUCTION: From the Second Century to our present age, many people have found the biblical doctrine of the Trinity hard to understand. The doctrine of the Trinity recognizes that God is one God, co-existing in three distinct Persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In our material existence, the concept that God is One God, yet exists as three distinct persons, is foreign to us. However, the doctrine of the Godhead (Trinity) is without questions revealed in God's word.

The biblical term "Godhead" (theiotes) is used three times in Scripture, Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9. The word “Trinity," which is the theological word Christians use to refer to the Godhead, is not found in Scripture.

· "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device" (Acts 17:29).

· "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (Romans 1:20)

· "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9)

The doctrine states that the Godhead, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, consists of three distinct Persons, yet these three are one God. There are many arguments espoused by those that deny the Trinity, but the most prevalent is: How can God be One God and at the same time be three Persons?

The problem with that question is that it is based in ignorance of what God has said about Himself. The Bible, the Word of God, plainly states the plurality of God and that God is One God. To accept His Word means to believe what God has revealed. The truth of the Trinity is a revealed truth that is established in the credibility of God Himself.

In Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus gave His disciples the Great Commission, stating that they were to teach and baptize in the names of the Godhead, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Further 1 John 5:7 states "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."[1] The fact God did not inspire the writers of Scripture to use the modern word "Trinity" does imply that it is not a biblical truth. However, there are many words and phrases that Christians use to express biblical doctrines that are not found in the Bible. One is the word "rapture." This word also is not found in Scripture, but the phrase “shall be caught up” (harpagēsometha) is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and means to “catch away” or in Latin “rapiēmur”meaning to be snatched away. In fact, the word "Bible" is also not found in the Scriptures. Would we dismiss the existence of the Bible because the word is not found in Scripture?[2]

Those that deny the Trinity are denying the Godhead. They argue that it is physically impossible for three distinct persons to be only one. This article will show that they are both right and wrong. They are right in the sense that it is impossible for us to explain how this can be a reality in our physical/material world. But they are wrong in denying that God is a Triune God. The approach of this paper will be first to authenticate the biblical doctrine by presenting biblical statements attesting to this truth.

One reason those who deny the Trinity do so is the Bible clearly teaches monotheism, meaning that God is One God. (Deut. 4:35-36, 6:4)

· “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.” (Deuteronomy 4:35-36)

· “And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:” (Deuteronomy 6:5-6)

· “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)

· “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” (Isaiah 43:11) The Scriptures unmistakably refer to the plurality of God in the He as exists in Three Persons. Secondly, this paper will present a practical explanation of the doctrine in human terms.

Overwhelmingly, the Bible teaches the Trinitarian concept of one God existing as three persons. The Bible does not teach polytheism, which says that there are three separate Gods called the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nor does the Bible say God is one person who took three forms or that the God the Father became the Son, who then became the Holy Spirit, as is taught by some false churches. The Bible does not teach that God is only one person or that Jesus is not God, but only God's procreated son.[3] The word of God does not teach that Jesus was created.

The Bible specifically states that God is Spirit and was never a man.

· “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” (Numbers 23:19)

· “And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.” (1 Samuel 15:29)

The Bible further plainly states that Jesus Christ, being God, is eternal, as is the Father. The Apostle John states clearly that Jesus, the Word, was with God in the beginning of the Universe. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.” (John 1:1-4) This passage will be explained in detail later in the article.

Jesus Himself plainly refers to eternity.

· “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” (John 8:58)

Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. In the following verse the term Alpha and Omega are defined by God Himself by the phrase “the beginning and the end” (verse 8) and “the first and the last” (verse 11).

· “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. . . . Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.” (Revelation 1:8, 11)

· “And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.” (Revelation 21:6)

· “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.” (Revelation 22:13)

**Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.**

**In this verse we have the (Holy Ghost) descending upon him, upon who? upon (Jesus.) We have a voice from heaven, (the Father) three separate and distinct persons.**

In that verse you find that God gave John the baptist both an audio and visual conformation that the man standing before him was indeed the Son of God.

A television is an object standing before people. It displays an image(s) from out of thin air, and words from out of thin air as well. There is a hot wire in the wall outlet that makes the tv come to life. If that seems like a crude example, then how crude is it to think that the omnipresent, omnipotetent, and omniscient God the Father can’t be IN Christ (opposite of what Christ so declared), and also can’t simultaneously make visual and audio signs for another man to witness.

The Son of God was the visible and audio expression, to fellow men, of God’s love, power, wisdom, etc. The Son declared those attributes to be “the Father in him” (John 14:10)

Jesus Christ declared that he was sent from God. He also declared that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father.

The Father is the original source of all things divine.

As we know, artificial intelligence is a creation of man.
It is also crude, I suppose, to say that the Son of God is God the Father’s initial creation of AI. The mind and soul of Jesus Christ was created by God.

“Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee?” Heb. 1:5 (Ps. 2:7)

“I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son”. Heb. 1:5

Then when the fullness of time was come, God sent his Son to redeem fallen man. To do this, the Son needed a body:

“Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body thou hast prepared me:” Heb. 10:5

And when he came to his own, he declared the Word of God. And the words that the image spoke were, by the Son’s own admission, from the Father.

**1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.**

**Now, I know the New World Order translations like to dismiss this particular verse, but I believe God can preserve His own word.**

Oh, God does indeed preserve his word. Sometimes imprinted in the memory of living and breathing people. The debate is which written or printed version is most accurately preserved.

My KJV (The Pilgrim Study Bible. Oxford Press) has the same verse. Yet the Trinitarian commentary on that page says: “Scholars mostly agree that this verse is not authentic and should be omitted.”

I have often thought it odd that the Trinitarian commentators, or contributing editors, would make what would seem to be a concession of sorts.

The scriptures point out that the Son inherited all things, even his name. Think about that for moment.

I was raised in a quite studious Trinitarian congregation, and was a regular at bible studies off and on through the youth and adult years, up until the age of 28. I’ve heard the Trinitarian teaching many times.

Don’t you find it odd that the apostles never baptized, repeating the titles, Father , Son, and Holy Ghost? It’s because that they knew those were titles, and not the name (singular).

They knew the name was Jesus. It’s the name that the Son inherited. That’s the name they used in water baptism. The book of Acts bears witness to that fact. It’s the only name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved.

**Further 1 John 5:7 states**

I discussed that in post #82, I you don’t mind checking it out.

I am out of time, but will offer more, hopefully tomorrow night.

I was raised in a quite studious Trinitarian congregation, and was a regular at bible studies off and on through the youth and adult years, up until the age of 28. I’ve heard the Trinitarian teaching many times.

I am curious what convinced you they were wrong? Who teaches you now to deny what has been the historic Christian understanding of the triune nature of our God? I certainly don't claim to be able to comprehend everything that this doctrine entails - we have finite minds incapable (for now) of grasping the infinite. This is something we accept by faith because it is what God has revealed to us in His word.

In that verse you find that God gave John the baptist both an audio and visual conformation that the man standing before him was indeed the Son of God.

My point in posting that verse was to refute your argument that the Biblical doctrine of God, being three separate and distinct personages is not a post-scriptural belief, but is in fact quite scriptural.

The Son of God was the visible and audio expression, to fellow men,

There are two vines where doctrine comes from, the true vine and the vine of Sodom. Reducing the Son of God down to nothing more than God's power point presentation, is doctrine grown up from the vine of Sodom.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Not an audio visual presentation.

John 15:1
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Deuteronomy 32:32
"For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:"

Oh, God does indeed preserve his word. Sometimes imprinted in the memory of living and breathing people.

The other doctrine that comes straight from the vine of Sodom, is the belief that God will judge you and I, based on what frail man can remember of His Word. There is one standard that we will be judged on, and it's not what so and so can remember about what God said, or what was handed down to us from Dear Old Grandad, or what this Philosopher said about God's Word 2,000 years ago, or what "Scholars mostly agree" on, we will be judge solely on what is written in God's preserved word, nothing else.

Think of all the evil people could get away with on Judgement day, if all they had to say was, "Hey, God I never knew that Your word said that, the person you gave it died before I was born."

Or, "Hey Lord, You can't fault me for doing that, the person You told that to, well, He got Alzheimer's later in life and forgot You told him that."

No, God preserved His word, and we have it with us here today, and both of us will be judged on it alone.

The text is rather clear on the actions of the Apostles, hence the title of the1st accounting following the Gospels themselves.

Most still however still subscribe to the 4th century dogmatic creation that compels its adherents to virtually ignore the reports of what was done and completely focus on what was said to prompt them.

The notion that one can rationally twist the most fundamental aspect of the monotheism first propagated by Jews is to my thinking, impossibly irrational. From Deuteronomy 6:4 to the Nicea Council, a bumpy route indeed full of convoluted rationalizations which upon serious reflection defy all aspects of the faith of the children of Abraham.

I am decades beyond trying to figure out why.

Throughout my youth and adult years of attending a Trinitarian church, I was sometimes curious as to why the pastor would seem to dodge certain parts of the book of Acts. But he was just teaching as he was taught. (While driving this week, I heard Allistar Begg cleverly dodge, and horribly misinterpret passages in Acts. He teaches as he was taught, no doubt.)

It wasn’t until one of my younger brothers moved away, and only months later told me he had been baptized in the name of Jesus. This seemed odd, since I had only heard of folks being baptized in the triune formula, myself included. He pointed out that the only way that folks were baptized in the original church, in obedience to Matt. 28:19, was in the name of Jesus.

The words and works of the apostles testify to that fact. Further study revealed to me that the Son indeed inherited his Father’s name (in fact inherited all things from the Father). The Son testified that the Holy Ghost is sent in the name of Jesus.

That was the beginning of seeing the way of the Lord more perfectly. Even you admit to not being able to completely comprehend the trinity concept.

Look at this crude ‘Ironman’ comparison. (disclaimer: I have never seen an ‘Ironman’ movie, but have seen enough clips and info to understand the idea it is built on.)

Ironman is supposed to be a suit with amazing powers, even AI is built into it. It’s creator dwells in it, and out of it. It has full function capability autonomously, thanks to the AI, but only doing the will of it’s creator, never using it’s AI to do anything contrary. Although, I’m told that in one of the movies, one of the creator’s suits goes off on his own, but has a change of ‘mind’ and returns.

Jesus Christ claims to have received EVERYTHING from the Father; words, works, love, feelings, ability to create,, his very life. The book of John testifies to that. And the Son testifies that the Father is in him, and he in the Father, literally. The Son was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, even having to deny his own will (which wants to follow the desires of the flesh), and instead do the will of the Father.

Man has chosen to believe that the Father is not literally in Christ, looking at the Father and Son in a carnal understanding (hence the false testimony of Joseph Smith, who claimed to have seen, and spoken with, both the Father and the Son).

**This is something we accept by faith because it is what God has revealed to us in His word.**

God has revealed in his word that the Son received his words and doctrine from the Father. The Son came not to bear witness of himself, but to bear witness of the Father. Jesus Christ said the Father gave the words to speak and the power to do the works in order to bear witness that the Father sent him. That is pointed out quite well in John chapter 5.

God, the eternal and invisible Father, is revealed to us through his Son. It is that simple.

**John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.**

If you believe that the Son is separately and distinctly the Word, then how do you explain the Son’s testimony that the words that he spoke were not his?

But, when you realize that the Father is an omnipresent spirit dwelling in Christ, then you can see that the Word is not flesh, but that the flesh was simply God’s most excellent vehicle to express the Word to mankind. (If you read post #87, you will see a somewhat crude example I use to expound on that belief). Your words are not from your flesh, but from your mind. You are not born with truth in your mind. It has to be placed (taught) in your mind.

**John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.**

The passage in John 15 is using the understanding of a vineyard and it maintenance.

The husbandman exists before, and gives life to the vine: planting, watering, fertilizing, keeping any competition (weeds and brush) from interfering with it.

**No, God preserved His word, and we have it with us here today, and both of us will be judged on it alone.**

True.
And there is enough testimony in the book of John alone to set people straight on the Godhead.

Do you believe that the Son inherited all things, including his name? If so, who from?

Thanks for your replies.

Just wondering; you state that the Word is not flesh. How do you reconcile that with John 1:14, which states, depending on the version, that the Word was made flesh, or the Word became flesh, or the Word became human, or the Word came in the flesh?

the Son’s testimony that the words that he spoke were not his?

Matthew 7:26
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Saying - to express in words; state; declare; word:

John 17:8
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me;and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

The words that Christ spoke were His, and they were given to Him from the Father, concurrently. God the Father and the Son of God, were in complete agreement. There is no difference in what they say, because they are both eternal.

Son inherited all things, including his name? If so, who from?

Christ is the Son of God and the Son of Man at the same time. He is eternal. The word of God does not teach that Christ was at first the Son of God, and then He became the Son of man, but that He is the Son of God and the Son of man simultaneously.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jesus, being God, and the Son of God, the 2nd person of the Godhead, at the same time, created all things, and at the same time, all things were created for Him. He is eternal. He created inheritance, and He inherits all things. He created the priesthood, He is our great High priest, He created thrones, He sits on the highest throne.

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Christ was not at first the Alpha and then He became the Omega, He is the Alpha and the Omega at the same time. Christ did not start at the beginning, and them became the end, He is the beginning and the end, at the same time. Christ was not the first and then over time became the last, He is the first and the last at the same time. Christ is Eternal God, the Son of God, and the Son of man, at the same time. Our finite mind can in no way fully grasp infinite, but we must believe it, in order to be saved.

I pray that same day you come to the knowledge of the truth, of who God is, and who Christ is, and who the Holy Ghost is. They are the Godhead, the one true and living God, and at the same time, three separate and distinct persons.

**Just wondering; you state that the Word is not flesh. How do you reconcile that with John 1:14, which states, depending on the version, that the Word was made flesh, or the Word became flesh, or the Word became human, or the Word came in the flesh?**

The Word of God is the testimony of God; anything about God, be it his power, wisdom, love, etc. It wasn’t enough to speak through the fathers and prophets. So, he chose to speak face to face. And to do so, he had to have his own body. This body couldn’t just be a shell with no human mind and soul. No, God wasn’t going to cut any corners; this would be a man in every aspect, even able to die.

That is why the flesh is not God. God cannot die.

**The words that Christ spoke were His, and they were given to Him from the Father, concurrently. God the Father and the Son of God, were in complete agreement. There is no difference in what they say, because they are both eternal.**

“My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.” John 7:16

“For I have not spoken of myself: but the Father which sent me, he gave commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.” John 12:49,50

**Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.**

So if the Father is in him doing the works (John 14:10)before the death, burial, and resurrection, then afterward the Father is still in him doing the works.

**Jesus, being God, and the Son of God, the 2nd person of the Godhead, at the same time, created all things, and at the same time, all things were created for Him. He is eternal. He created inheritance, and He inherits all things. He created the priesthood, He is our great High priest, He created thrones, He sits on the highest throne.**

I think that you are throwing in a little too much personal interpretation there, FRiend.

inherit: receive (money, property, or a title) as an heir at the death of the previous holder.

**Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.**

So is he not speaking the words from the Father in that verse? Is the Father not dwelling in him at that point?

**God, and at the same time, three separate and distinct persons.**

Doesn’t creation itself show that a three-headed creature is a freak of nature? If they survive birth, they certainly live a crippled life.

Thank you for your prayers. I pray that you will study the book of John, and see that God the Father is the source of the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

(1 John 2:23)
"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."

I hope that one day, I can call you a brother in Christ.

or sister in Christ ;)

**Just wondering; you state that the Word is not flesh. How do you reconcile that with John 1:14, which states, depending on the version, that the Word was made flesh, or the Word became flesh, or the Word became human, or the Word came in the flesh?**

The Word of God is the testimony of God; anything about God, be it his power, wisdom, love, etc. It wasn’t enough to speak through the fathers and prophets. So, he chose to speak face to face. And to do so, he had to have his own body. This body couldn’t just be a shell with no human mind and soul. No, God wasn’t going to cut any corners; this would be a man in every aspect, even able to die.

That is why the flesh is not God. God cannot die.

There is still the question; how do you reconcile your statement that the Word is not flesh with what is written in Holy Scripture, that the Word became flesh?

Excellent post and thank you.

During his homily at today’s Mass, the priest talked about when he was in the seminary. He and his fellow seminarians were looking forward to the class on the Trinity, thinking that they would finally understand the Mystery of the Trinity. Indeed, the professor took them through all the teachings, Augustine, Aquinas, all the great philosophy and theology. At the end of the semester, the professor said: “There you have it, the Trinity: three persons, two processions, one God, zero proof.”

At the end of the semester, the professor said: “There you have it, the Trinity: three persons, two processions, one God, zero proof.”

I take it the professor's comment relates to the objective of "finally understanding the Mystery of the Trinity." As to that, truly, "proof" of that which ultimately lies beyond our human comprehension is lacking. But that's not to say there isn't ample proof from Scripture and Tradition to affirm the Athanasian Trinitarian view as correct as against the competing viewpoints.

**There is still the question; how do you reconcile your statement that the Word is not flesh with what is written in Holy Scripture, that the Word became flesh?**

How do you reconcile your wanting God to literally be flesh, when Jesus Christ and his aposltes declare God to be a Spirit and invisible? (John 1:18, 5:37, Col.1:15, 1Tim. 1:17, Heb. 11:27, 1John 4:12)

After his teaching on the ‘bread of life’, Jesus Christ declared that it wasn’t literally the flesh that gives life, but the Spirit:

“It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” John 6:63

Your words don’t come from your flesh, but from your mind, and are inseparable from your very being. Your mind is in a fleshly body, designed by God, and is the method you use to express yourself. Your body is not your mind.

Jesus Christ is the express image of the invisible God. God is invisible. The scriptures are complete when teaching doctrine. When Jesus Christ said that God is a Spirit, he was giving as basic of a description as he could to the person he was talking to.

He claimed that all of his words of testamony were not his, but the Father’s. He claimed the Father was in him doing the works. I don’t know how clearer he could be to enquiring minds.

(I’d have answered sooner, but Sat. morn the wife and I were greeted, when turning on the PC, to a welcome to Winndoze 10. We didn’t ask for it, but there it was. So we delayed taking any action, and enjoyed the nice weekend, and asked friends what to do. We decided to just learn to use the new OS. Still kinda ticked off that it was loaded without our permission.)

**(1 John 2:23) “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”**

And in what way am I denying the Son? I define him just as the scriptures define him. The Son expresses the words of the Father. He repeatedly witnessed that fact. He repeatedly said that he is in the Father, and the Father in him. His declaration that God is a Spirit was as plain and as accurate as could be.

If you don’t believe that the Father is the divine power in Christ, then you are denying the Son’s own testimony, and therefore denying the Son, IMO.

The problem people have in accepting the Son’s testimony as it is written, is that they have added to the scriptures by using teaching ‘helps’ that are just not scriptural, such as:

three persons of God
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
trinity
co-equal, co-eternal

I can take any passage you present, where you think that you can show separate and distinct deity, and I in turn can show you that the Father is present, and is the divine source. Do you not believe that the Father is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent?

To the Son, the words ‘Father’ and ‘God’, are interchangeable. Jesus Christ taught us that quite thoroughly in John. So much so, that you can switch them in any verse, and it is still the truth. Any time Jesus Christ mentioned God, he was referring to the Father. Anytime he mentioned the Father he was referring to God.

The Father is the only true God. Jesus Christ said it, so it must be so. And where did his testimony originate?....

The Father.

**I hope that one day, I can call you a brother in Christ.**

(or sister).

Likewise, FRiend

I’m a dude. Zuriel was a chief of the ‘sons’ of Merari, who was one of Levi’s sons. Zuriel was head honcho when it came to setting up the framework of the tabernacle, and taking it down and transporting it.

(I would have replied sooner, but Sat. morn greeting the wife and I to a PC that had downloaded Winndoze 10 without our permission. We chose to enjoy the weekend, and worry about it later. I guess we’ll just have to get used to the new OS. I’m still a little bent, but maybe I’ll just get off the grid someday.)