Posted on 05/21/2016 8:38:01 AM PDT by Salvation
So why not share what you have studied for the benefit of others who believe in a PTR?
Here's a couple...
Ephraim The Syrian
Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.
Irenaeus
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.
Great discussion ‘there’. Thanks for the link
So you presume to speak for ALL Catholics?
You know their hearts and minds that you can definitively state that they do NOT worship her?
Catholics by their actions, display worship of Mary.
That can be objectively seen in their actions, which break the second commandment.
The REAL one, not the Catholic version.
As much as you do when you claim protestants don't worship the Bible.
Neither of those sources say what you claim. I'm taking these in chronological order, breaking them into separate posts.
Irenaeus.
The except cited is from Book V, Ch. 29. Some effort to read in context would have been helpful for the author of that article.
In Book V, Ch. 25, Irenaeus had already made clear that the saints are present at the start of the Tribulation:
4. The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: “I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,”4668 calling Antichrist “the other,” because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one “who feared not God, neither regarded man,”4669 to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ. To this purpose Daniel says again: “And he shall desolate the holy place; and sin has been given for a sacrifice,4670 and righteousness been cast away in the earth, and he has been active (fecit), and gone on prosperously.”4671 And the angel Gabriel, when explaining his vision, states with regard to this person: “And towards the end of their kingdom a king of a most fierce countenance shall arise, one understanding [dark] questions, and exceedingly powerful, full of wonders; and he shall corrupt, direct, influence (faciet), and put strong men down, the holy people likewise; and his yoke shall be directed as a wreath [round their neck]; deceit shall be in his hand, and he shall be lifted up in his heart: he shall also ruin many by deceit, and lead many to perdition, bruising them in his hand like eggs.”4672 And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: “And in the midst of the week,” he says, “the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.”4673 Now three years and six months constitute the half-week. Source
To read Irenaeus is to understand the church is present during the Tribulation and is persecuted ("put to flight").
Irenaeus reiterates the point in his next chapter:
1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.”4676 It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.Source
So in chapters 25 and 26 of Book V, Irenaeus rather clear indicates the Church is present at the start of the Tribulation period. Does he somehow magically change views when we get to Chapter 29 and quoted sentence offered as supposedly a PTR declaration? No. It is pure "putting on the glasses of one's presuppositions" reading going on here to think that.
"Those nations, however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;”4698 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”4699 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.The imagery here is one of the refiner's fire (cf., e.g., 1 Pet. 1:7 "So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."). Irenaeus right before the supposed "rapture" phrase, speaks of how the stubble of the straw "by means of combustion, serves for working gold."
And notice the final sentence here -- a sentence that the quote in the article which you've copied and pasted conveniently omits: "For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." The righteous (the saints, the "church") past through into the Tribulation and are tested and "put to flight." Those who prove worthy of the test are crowned.
To try to take this carefully truncated portion from Irenaeus and twist it to make him appear to be speaking of a PTR is rank intellectual dishonesty.
But you will never get the poster to acknowledge that there are Church Age saints who are not Tribulation Saints, nor will you get the poster to acknowledge that he has made an error due to incorrect assignation of Matthew and Mark ... the Luke 21 Discourse was spoken in the Temple followed by the Olivet explanation.
I chose to not discuss these issues with him/her further because there is an ego problem hindering reasonable discussion.
This is a speculation: perhaps by the time Irenaeus wrote his commentaries the lack of the Rapture cited as imminent in the Bible left CFs wanting to explain why, thus they gradually greyed the Rapture imminency into an amalgam of the Day of The Lord and the deliverance from the wrath to come, as assured by Paul in the Thessalonian letters. ... Imminent need not mean soon or right away. Maranatha coined by the early believers indicates they were anticipating the Raptrure and the wrath to those not Raptured to happen in their immediate lives. When it had not happened by Irenaeus's day, and folks were dying and being persecuted by men, the believers were confused. Add to that confusion that false letters and teaching was coming in at the start and you have a situation which the leadership felt needed to be dealt with and they dealt with it by various errors, such as conflating The Day of The Lord with the Ekklesia delivery from wrath, or presuming the events prophesied in Matthew and Mark were fulfilled in AD 70. There are teaches even today trying to float that one, relying on dating The Revelation to AD67 or there abouts.
Ephraim The Syrian Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.
First off, this text was NOT authored by Ephraim the Syrian. Here I'll just cite to the Wiki article for a short summary:
Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem (known today as the Sermon at the end of the world)[1] is a 7th-century Syrian tract which provides a glimpse into the events that took place during its time in the Middle-East.So what we have with the Latin text (the source of the quote above) is a document produced likely several centuries after the death of the real Ephraim the Syrian, which in turn borrows from a different post-Ephraim pseudonymous document, and for which the Latin text varies greatly from the Syriac version. The claim this is the work of Ephraim the Syrian is but more dishonesty which Pre-Trib supports try to foist off.
Use of Other (Latin) Pseudo-Ephraem in Controversy over the History of Rapture Doctrine[edit]
A translation of a radically different "Ephraem" text, a Latin text (with disputed date) of what is also purported to be a sermon of Ephraem, by a professor at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, Texas, Cameron Rhoades, is cited by some, to support an early Church reference to the rapture. While the Latin text is dated in the period 4th to 8th centuries, exactly when in that time bracket is questionable. The Latin text may not date before the 8th-century. The Latin text is certainly not translated from the (radically different) Syriac sermon. The Latin origin may be earlier than the Syriac origin. Its relation to the Greek texts is uncertain.
* * *
The opinions of scholars are divided on the origins of this apocalypse, but a date later than Ephraem with pseudonymous authorship are advanced by some. As an example, C. P. Caspari (Latin text editor) and Paul Alexander advance a date after the demise of (St.) Ephraem. Caspari would date it between late 6th and early 7th AD centuries. Alexander claims the work apparently was originally was written at the end of the 4th AD century, but only reached its final form by the late 6th to early 7th centuries. Thus for these scholars, this is not the actual work of Ephraem the Syrian, but the work of some unknown preacher now termed 'Pseudo- Ephraem'.
* * *
As referenced above, these two translations differ substantially due to the fact that the underlying text are in different languages and that the Latin version borrows from portions of Pseudo-Methodius apocalypse (late 7th century).
But, still, does this Latin text of dubious original teach a PTR view? No!
If one but reads the entirety of the document (full context reading seems to be an insurmountable challenge for the article author or those citing that article), one will see that no even this document of dubious origins supports the claim:
Section IV Whenever therefore the earth is agitated by the nations, people will hide themselves from the wars in the mountains and rocks, by caves and caverns of the earth, by graves and memorials of the dead, and there, as they waste away gradually by fear, they draw breath, because there is not any place at all to flee, but there will be concession and intolerable pressure. And those who are in the east will flee to the west, and moreover, those who are in the west shall flee to the east, and there is not a safer place anywhere, because the world shall be overwhelmed by worthless nations, whose aspect appears to be of wild animals more than that of men. Because those very much horrible nations, most profane and most defiled, who do not spare lives, and shall destroy the living from the dead, shall consume the dead, they eat dead flesh, they drink the blood of beasts, they pollute the world, contaminate all things, and the one who is able to resist them is not there. In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them.
What?? There are Christians alive in this period?? It seems the author isn't really picturing a world where all Christians got "rapture" prior to these events?
And we read on further . . .
Section VIII In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth, and the clouds shall cease to pass through the air, and the stars shall be seen with difficulty in the sky because of the excessive dryness, which happens in the time of the very fierce dragon. . . .
* * *
Section IX Then, when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lordust, so that they may be damned forever with their author the Devil, and, as God beholds the human race in danger and being tossed about by the breath of the horrible dragon, he sends to them consolatory proclamation by his attendants, the prophets Enoch and Elijah, who, while not yet tasting death, are the servants for the heralding of the second coming of Christ, and in order to accuse the enemy.
Notice again the "testing" of the just that we saw clearly set for in Irenaeus? All these tribulations are again stated to prepare the just for the coming of the Lord.
But, OK, but what does the earlier bit about being "taken to the Lord lest lest they see the confusion that is about to overwhelm the world" mean? Interestingly, the Syria version has a parallel passage, which reads:
And when the Accursed One comes And displays his mighty works and wonders, The nations will gather together and come As (if) they were going to see God. Groups and nations will join him, And every person will renounce their deity; Everyone will say of him to their fellow That they should acknowledge him, the Son of Destruction! Peoples will fall upon one another, Slaying each other with swords. The elect will flee from his presence To the peaks of mountains and hills, And there will be calamity on earth Unlike any that came before. Fear will fall upon all people And they will be overcome with terror. Children will renounce their father And follow after the Evil One; Priests will abandon their altars To serve as his heralds. People will flee to cemeteries And hide themselves among the dead, Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!
How do the "blessed ones" escape the coming perils? By some sudden, secret "rapture?" No -- they escape BY DYING!
So when a person is challenged to support a claim that person has made, you term that challenge "baiting?" That's ridiculous.
As I previously posted to you, I was anticipating a discussion of the notion of imminency, as taught by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, and found in Jude
Though your first comment to me (Post 211) said nothing about "imminency," but did made the claim I've been challenging ("Not only are there many references in early church writings, but the pre-trib notion is also found early on in church History").
But I understand why you have since been trying to backpedal from the ECF claim and slant this along a different line.
Except that, as I showed from Irenaeus's writings a few posts back, when he discusses Daniel, Irenaeus makes explicit reference to the Church!:
1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.”4676 It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.
The ink hadn't dried on my comment that you read Irenaeus through the glasses of your presuppositions when you turn around and commit the same error.
But you will never get the poster to acknowledge that there are Church Age saints who are not Tribulation Saints,
Why would I deny that? There have been, are presently, and will be church-age saints who are not tribulation saints for the simple fact they will have died before the Tribulation. Though it's also true that there will be (earthly) saints in the Tribulation era because the church will still be present on earth then. You should read the Church Fathers. Those speaking to the point uniformly affirm this.
nor will you get the poster to acknowledge that he has made an error due to incorrect assignation of Matthew and Mark ...
The error here is your failure to note that I haven't even discussed Matthew or Mark on this topic.
I chose to not discuss these issues with him/her further because there is an ego problem hindering reasonable discussion.
Translation: "He's killing my argument at every turn, so the best I can do is kibbitz about him to other posters."
By what other names do you post at FR?
None.
Good observation.
But if you believe that such things as praying to created beings in Heaven validly finds its origin (it's "seeds") in the earlier thoughts and beliefs of the Scriptures, then you should have little problem with developing the PTR (which i do not subscribe to as a futurist) out of futurism, though i do.
And the author is not picturing a world where all Christians did not get raptured...There will be new Christians during the Tribulation...The text is already in place where the church will be raptured prior to the work of the anti Christ...
Whether it was Ephraem or a pseudo Ephraem who authored this piece makes no difference ...The point is that the idea of a pre Tribulation rapture existed at the time...
While there is not much in the way of evidence that the church thru out history believed in a pre Tribulation rapture there is some evidence...Both before the Reformation and after prior to the 19th Century...There's enough evidence to prove that Darby was not the originator of the idea...
Fair enough. Though the "Rapture" has always existed as a teaching within a future event (the Parousia). It's the separation of the "Rapture" and the Parousia by a period of years that's the novelty. The argument would need to be developed as to how anything Ribera wrote was more of a "seed" for the PTR than the original futurist view of the Parousia.
But if you believe that such things as praying to created beings in Heaven validly finds its origin (it's "seeds") in the earlier thoughts and beliefs of the Scriptures,
Intercessory prayer is rooted principally in the faith and practice of the early church. (The faith and practice of the same generations of early Christians from which we take our acceptance of the Bible canon in the first place). It finds inferential support in the Scriptures. Though it's not like someone was reading the scriptures and then around the 1800's decided there was this other new facet as to how one might pray. That would be suspect.
, then you should have little problem with developing the PTR (which i do not subscribe to as a futurist) out of futurism, though i do.
Doctrine can develop, but it has to develop consistently within the context of what's already known and accepted as true. The PTR with its dispensationalist foundation is too much of a departure from historic, confessing Christianity for it to be a legitimately developed doctrine.
I've yet to see a PTR supporter claim what Darby did in the 1800's was a development of any prior "seed" existing before Ms. MacDonald. They (for the most part) eschew history, and for good reason. How does one claim the PTR is taught in the Scriptures and explain that near total absence of anyone "seeing" that in the scriptures for a Millennium and a half, while at the same time (being the good Protestant progeny they are) claiming the Scriptures are "perspicacious" (i.e., self-illuminating and self-teaching without any need for repair to Tradition or a notion of a "Magisterium)?
It seems to make a difference to those who somewhat gleefully try to add greater legitimacy by tying it to a canonized "saint" of the church.
The point is that the idea of a pre Tribulation rapture existed at the time...
That still depends on what the Pseudo-Ephraim meant by "escaping" the Tribulations to come. I've shown that the Syriac version describes this as escape via death:
And when the Accursed One comes And displays his mighty works and wonders, The nations will gather together and come As (if) they were going to see God. Groups and nations will join him, And every person will renounce their deity; Everyone will say of him to their fellow That they should acknowledge him, the Son of Destruction! Peoples will fall upon one another, Slaying each other with swords. The elect will flee from his presence To the peaks of mountains and hills, And there will be calamity on earth Unlike any that came before. Fear will fall upon all people And they will be overcome with terror. Children will renounce their father And follow after the Evil One; Priests will abandon their altars To serve as his heralds. People will flee to cemeteries And hide themselves among the dead, Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!
You still lack a document that unambiguously teaches the notion of a bodily transportation of the living to Heaven prior to the Tribulation.
While there is not much in the way of evidence that the church thru out history believed in a pre Tribulation rapture there is some evidence.
If the question is phrased "is there any evidence?" a correct answer is "nearly none."
If the question is phrased "has this been believed throughout history?" the answer is "absolutely not." There is NO evidence of any continuity of thought or believe, even among the scant fragments that some purport to hold up.
But how can this be if the PTR is set forth in Scripture? We Catholics are told the Scriptures are "perspicacious;" that anyone coming to them in the spirit of truth will understand. How can it be that pretty much the entire professing christian world managed to look past 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and not understand its proper significance for 1800 years? And that epistle is likely the very first book written of what we now call the NT.
So it seems that either the Scriptures are not as claimed (so the Catholic case for a "Magisterium" -- a Divinely appointed teaching authority held by the church Jesus established -- is made stronger) or that there is something fundamentally flawed with the Pre-Trib Rapture theory as a matter of Bible interpretation.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.