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To: UnChained

A restatement.

That the Trinity is an unfathomable mystery is a point of faith in many people’s beliefs but I do not think that the Bible teaches that the Trinity is inherently beyond understanding. The Bible gives many clues that led to the formal statements of the doctrine but to date there have been few attempts express the Trinity in a way that was comprehensible yet were aligned with orthodox Christian doctrine.

This is not an analogy to help someone understand the Trinity better but is an assertion of what is the primary nature of the relationship of the Father and Son. I was hoping that someone would either refute it Biblically or help refine the presentation of it as a fuller answer to understanding the mystery of the Trinity.

The various Christian creeds that touch on the Trinity give carefully crafted descriptions of the relationships within the Godhead, but the hard to comprehend aspects are generally relegated to mystery. The question how three persons can be in fact, be one is not addressed in the creeds but rather the creeds merely contain eloquent assertions that the Three are indeed One and mostly leave it at that; no real explanation is offered. Many Christians resort to one analogy or another as a means to comprehend and express the relationships within the Godhead. Yet no analogy can be truly analogous; the Godhead is unique.

I feel that all attempts to articulate the Triune Godhead that I have seen focus on inconsequentials like the shared qualities of the Members of the Godhead. The nature of the Trinity is subtle but also rather simple. I apologize that I couldn’t come up with a way to express it more compactly, please bear with me.

Identity is not the same as identical:
You will acknowledge that God in His Omnipotence has the power to create a perfect copy of me, a color Xerox of me if you will. Such a copy might be so perfect that the copy would be convinced that he actually WAS me. My family couldn’t tell the difference either because he would share every single attribute I possessed.; but he wouldn’t truly BE me and I would rightly object to being killed to make room for him . Conversely, if my own attributes ever changed for some reason like due to having a stroke, and I even forgot the faces of my own children, wouldn’t I still be me? I am a being and each being that exists has its own unique identity. That identity is independent of whatever attributes are present or absent.

God is outside of time:
“In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.”. Genesis 1:1

This verse describes the creation of the Earth, the cosmos, and the creation of the place we commonly call Heaven. When God created everything, He also created time and space. God therefore exists beyond time and space. Glimpses we get into the third Heaven in Revelation, reveal that there is some sort of dimensionality there but one cannot reach Heaven by physically traveling to it from Earth. In a sense, the realm that we call Heaven is sort of like a parallel universe. One wrinkle in that comparison is that the time in Heaven is apparently locked to the time here on Earth. Verses that describe reactions in Heaven to events on Earth indicate that the time is synchronized between Heaven and Earth.

I said all that to highlight that our existence here on Earth is spacial and temporal. The scriptures strongly imply that existence in Heaven is spacial and temporal too. Even though the Lord’s Prayer includes the line “Our Father, Who art in Heaven...”, the created realm that is Heaven, doesn’t fully contain God. The Psalmist says that God has to bow down to even LOOK at Heaven. When Solomon was dedicating the Temple, he said to God “even the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain You.”. This is all because God is beyond time and space.

However, in the incarnation, Jesus WAS contained by time and space here on the Earth; He wasn’t omnipresent even though He saw Andrew from afar. And even though all power and authority was given to Jesus; He wasn’t omnipotent. When Jesus said that only the Father knew the time of His coming, Jesus implied that He wasn’t omniscient either. Detailed knowledge of the future apparently was the domain only of the Father who is beyond time.

What does God’s only Begotten Son mean?
We serve a living God, but what do we mean when we we say that God is alive? Isn’t it that like us, God is a Being? Doesn’t even His Name “I AM” assert God’s livingness as a being? We humans are alive as sentient beings. We are each a “Self Awareness” which is something alive that is superimposed upon our biological lives. This most important component of our “livingness” is this intangible thing that is looking out of our eyes. Indeed, that is how we humans were made by God “after His own Likeness.” God is a living being and so are we. Another word used to denote our being is “soul”. It is our soul that we hope will live again in the resurrection. But if God reassembles you again after you are fed through a wood chipper, will the resurrected you be the REAL you or merely a color Xerox of you?

Christians believe that God has the power to truly raise them from the dead. We therefore believe God has the power to manipulate individual souls, moving them through time and space, housing them and rehousing them as needed; Indeed, He demonstrated that power by placing His own Being, His “I AM”, into a human body in Bethlehem over 2000 years ago and then subsequently dieing and rising again.

It is meaningless to talk about the dual natures of Christ when the important fact is that Jesus was/is the same I AM as the Father. Also whatever attributes were present or absent in the incarnation is of secondary relevance to the fact that Jesus was and is, the same I AM as the Father. When God breathed life into Adam, He created a new being to inhabit Adam’s body. In the incarnation of Jesus, God installed His own Being, His very Life into the Human body that was Jesus’. Just as when I begot my son by contributing my LIVING sperm that became a vital part of the LIVING cell that grew into my living son; so God begot Jesus by putting His own life, His very BEING into His Son’s body. Jesus and the Father aren’t two persons. They are two different instances of the SAME person if the word person means anything at all. Talk of the “same substance” or of “essences” doesn’t convey the awesome reality of Jesus’ oneness with the Father. The talk of three persons in the creeds are error I feel.

The answer to the Mystery:
The questions that may still confound the reader are “If Jesus is the same Being / I AM / Person as the Father,

How can Jesus and the Father exist at the SAME time?” ( like at the baptism of Jesus )

How can Jesus be subordinate to the Father?”

How could Jesus pray to the Father and talk about Him in the third person?”

The answer to question number one is the key to it all.

IT ISN’T THE SAME TIME!!!”

The Father is the Great “ I AM “ who dwells OUTSIDE of time and space. In the incarnation, Jesus was the I AM of God dwelling WITHIN time and Space. There is no paradox or simultaneity conflict between the two realms. All of God’s attributes couldn’t fit in this Universe or in Jesus’ human body though, The Father to Son relationship is a result of the inevitable Greater to Lesser / Begetter to Begotten nature of the relationship.

In brief, Jesus is the “I AM” of God within time and space, the Father is the “I AM” Who dwells beyond time and space. If the reader can get a handle on this, all of the scriptures that touch on this topic will fall into place.

Even Jesus’ existence in Heaven was and is temporal. Whether you contend that Jesus had a beginning with the start of time in Heaven, or if you say that Jesus existed from eternity past before the Creation, doesn’t really change what makes Jesus one with the Father. Focusing on whether attributes are shared or not doesn’t affect the awesome fact that our God so contrived reality that He could give up His life for us. Jesus wasn’t some hapless third party that God punished on our behalf; Jesus was God Himself in the flesh!!

That fact is much more wondrous than anything you gain by adhering to the words of some mouldy creed.

An interesting wrinkle to this understanding provides a rationale for why there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth. While the desirability of a New Earth may be obvious; the need for a New Heaven is not. What is wrong with the, no doubt, awesome Heaven that exists now?

The rationale is buried within a point mentioned earlier. God cannot be contained by Heaven. Though Heaven may be God’s Throne and the Earth His footstool, Heaven is still a created, temporal place, too small for God. Yet in Revelation 21, right after the New Heaven and Earth are established, a momentous angelic announcement is heard.

“Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.”

Hear what’s being said here:

“...God Himself will be with them...”

God will be able to move into the New Heaven and make Himself at home there. Apparently, God’s plan for eternity is to remake reality so He can spend it just as close to us as He can get us. Cool Huh?

I feel all this is the answer to 2/3 of the Trinity mystery. Most discussions of the Trinity only speak of the Father and the Son so I’ve left it there. The relationship of the Holy Spirit to the rest of the Godhead seems much more elusive for now.


48 posted on 08/14/2016 4:27:09 PM PDT by UnChained (Revelation 13:7)
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To: UnChained
I do not take issue with your explanation, I will have to think about it for a while but I will give another illustration for you to ponder and maybe fit into your solution. Consider the following two verses together.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
I Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
So, God made light and God is light. Surely our understanding of light will help us to understand something invisible of him. Take a look at the electromagnetic spectrum. There is a band in the middle which divides light into three sections, a trinity. The middle band is the visible part of the spectrum or the rainbow. This is the part of light that we can see even as Christ is the part of God that we can see, the second person.

I wanted to point out one property of light that is pertinent here. The Doppler Shift. If a light source is moving away from us, the frequency is lower, if it is coming toward us the frequency is higher. Thus any frequency can be any other frequency depending on the relative speed between the light source and us. This may begin to explain how the Father, Son and the Spirit can be one and three at the same time.
Gen 9:16 And the bow (Christ) shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

49 posted on 08/14/2016 10:33:21 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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