I thought that those were just Christian churches. Btw, are you a former Mormon, just out of curiosity, if you don’t mind my asking?

I hope that Chick truly repented of his sins and asked God for forgiveness before his death.

daniel1212,

ebb tibe apparently isn’t equipped to answer even the most basic of questions concerning the Catholic faith.

Concerning Keenan’s Catechism, let’s look at the original statement:

“Q. Must not Catholics believe the Pope in himself to be infallible?”

“A. This is a Protestant invention: it is no article of the Catholic faith: no decision of his can oblige, under pain of heresy, unless it be received and enforced by the teaching body; that is, by the bishops of the Church.”

1) First, note that Keenan is addressing the issue of infallibility and the pope. The very idea that the question is expressed the way it is - “Must not Catholics believe the Pope in himself to be infallible?” - as coming from a Protestant (”This is a Protestant invention”) shows that even Protestants understood that infallibility was connected to the office of the pope but they failed to understand the connection as viewed by Catholics both before the First Vatican Council and afterward.

2) In the Catholic view, before and after Vatican I, Papal infallibility was not connected or dependent upon “the Pope in himself” (i.e. on his personhood), but his office. Please not that the version of the question you are using is missing the word “in” (”pope in himself”). By dropping that one tiny word the very sense of the question is changed.

3) The very wording of the answer shows that Keenan was not framing infallibility as Catholics would have it before or after Vatican I but instead as Protestants mistakenly saw it. Hence, “no decision of his can oblige, under pain of heresy, unless it be received and enforced by the teaching body; that is, by the bishops of the Church.” Keenan knew that heresies - such as those of Martin Luther - were condemned by Pope Leo X even without “the bishops of the Church.” This is not the same infallibility as delineated by Vatican I but it is related as per Keenan’s point.

4) Years later, after Vatican I, the question was stated and answered this way:

“Q: Is the Pope infallible?

A: Yes, the Pope is infallible.

Q: But some Catholics, before the Vatican Council, denied the infallibility of the Pope, which was impugned by this very Catechism.

A: Yes, they did so under the usual reservation, insofar as they then could grasp the mind of the Church, and subject to her future definitions, thus implicitly accepting the dogma.”

The text is strictly correct, but I think it does a great disservice to Keenan. There is no evidence he was impugning papal infallibility properly understood. He was most definitely impugning papal infallibility as misunderstood by Protestants. Sadly, even some of the best Catholic apologists fail to note this. Another thing that is NEVER mentioned is that Keenan’s Catechism is a translation and enlargement of Scheffmacher’s “Polemic Catechism” which wholeheartedly believed in the infallibility of the Church.

When Beda Mayr - who lived and died as a Benedictine monk decades before Keenan’s Catechism - wrote about the hoped for reunion of Catholics and Protestants he knew that it was infallibility of the Church and the Pope which Protestants would not accept. Mayr may have gotten a number of things wrong but he seems to be one of the earliest theologians to frame infallibility as a negative protection of the Holy Spirit for the Church - and you almost never hear anyone talk about this even though that is the proper sense. If you read Ulrich Lehner’s fascinating book, Beda Mayr, Vertheidigung der katholischen Religion (1789): Sammt einem Anhange von der Möglichkeit einer Vereinigung zwischen unserer, und der evangelisch-lutherischen Kirche you’ll see that he fully discusses the opposing school opinions of infallibility in the 18th century. Lehner covers much of the same territory (sometimes word-for-word) in On the Road to Vatican II: German Catholic Enlightenment and Reform of the Church but I think he presents too many things as bona fide conclusions there which are really just conjectures on his part.

My final point is this: Almost no one here has ever read a single article on papal infallibility let alone a book about it. If you’re going to ask a question about the Catholic faith in which you want to think you’ve somehow stumped or embarrassed or caught out Catholics, then ask ebb tide. If you want the question competently answered simply ask someone, almost anyone, else.

Presumption is a sin. So is pride.

Who's doing the presuming? I'm taking God at His word and believing His exceeding great and precious promises. The only pride I see here is from those who would rather trust in their own righteousness to save them instead of humbling themselves before the Lord and receiving the grace He so freely offers.

There's also the jealousy and envy - as long as we're talking about sin - directed at those who know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is faithful and He is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through Christ Jesus, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

So if someone is worried about their salvation, it is a pretty clear indicator that they are NOT trusting God.

Yep! That's exactly how it sounds.

As I said earlier, I reject post VCII catechisms.

You also denied being a "Sedevacanist". So, are you a Sedevacanist or do you just reject the Vatican II Council and all Popes after Pope Pius XII as being valid? What would you call your "different" viewpoint which holds to most of the same tenets as they do?

You “go to” Confession for forgiveness?

Go straight to Jesus.

If you are a Christian, He lives in you and you in Him.

He is always with a Christian and will forgive sins when asked.

If you wish to wait and go to “confession” and ask a man for for forgiveness, no problem.

I prefer the Biblical path.

I won’t look up where in the Bible it says to ‘go to confession’

If you know it is in the Bible, give me the book, chapter and verse from Holy Spirit inspired scriptures.

Otherwise we can be sure it isn’t in there.

John 20:21 He said therefore to them again : Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.
John 20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them ; and he said to them :  Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them ; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Of course, non-Catholics always feel free to claim they believe what Christ said while they're totally contradicting what Christ Himself said.

The text is strictly correct, but I think it does a great disservice to Keenan. There is no evidence he was impugning papal infallibility properly understood. He was most definitely impugning papal infallibility as misunderstood by Protestants

I would agree. I think that the subsequent edition clarifies the original. The first edition was not incorrect, but incomplete.

Did you notice the irony in this whole article.

The headline is about the *constant* teaching about non-Catholics and yet as you are discussing how to be saved, Catholics can’t even agree, even officially, if non-Catholics are going to heaven.

Past teaching is that no non-Catholics will make it into heaven at all. Period. End of story. And that is what I grew up being taught.

And yet now, according to V2 and now the pope, almost anyone can get in. Muslims, (in first place), Jews, atheists if they follow their conscience. (Anyone except those heretic *Prots*, mind you.)

And we all know that that’s but one example among many.

From the church that never changes.

Sure.

Is is that you reject the Bible?

Would I DARE to reject the Good Book that Rome assembled?

A guidebook into how to play church?

NEVER!!!

Acts 15

The Council at Jerusalem
¹ Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." ² This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. ³ The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. ⁴ When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
⁵ Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses."
⁶ The apostles and elders met to consider this question. ⁷ After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. ⁸ God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. ⁹ He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. ¹⁰ Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? ¹¹ No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
¹² The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. ¹³ When they finished, James spoke up. "Brothers," he said, "listen to me. ¹⁴ Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. ¹⁵ The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
¹⁶ "'After this I will return
   and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
   and I will restore it,
¹⁷ that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
   even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
¹⁸ things known from long ago.
¹⁹ "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. ²⁰ Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. ²¹ For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers
²² Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. ²³ With them they sent the following letter:

   The apostles and elders, your brothers,
   To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
   Greetings.
²⁴ We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. ²⁵ So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— ²⁶ men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. ²⁷ Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. ²⁸ It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: ²⁹ You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
   Farewell.

³⁰ So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. ³¹ The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. ³² Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. ³³ After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. ^[34] ³⁵ But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.
Disagreement Between Paul and Barnabas
³⁶ Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing." ³⁷ Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, ³⁸ but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. ³⁹ They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, ⁴⁰ but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord. ⁴¹ He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

Presumption is a sin. So is pride.

Interesting observation.

I guess any Catholic can believe whatever they want.

A TRUE Catholic would REJECT the following (I presume).

Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS. Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.

Antoninus: …souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED.

Athanasius: …And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.

Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

(Leo XIII: Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895) — [p. 19, no. 44]

Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.

Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.

She says, "He that shall find Me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord. "Qui me invenerit, inveniet vitam, et hauriet salutem a Domino."

Listen," exclaims St. Bonaventure on these words, "listen, all you who desire the kingdom of God: honor the most Blessed Virgin Mary, and you will find life and eternal salvation." "Audite qui ingredi cupitis regnum Dei: Virginem Mariam honorate, et invenietis vitam et salutem perpetuam."-psalt. B.V.ps.48.

Ephem: …devotion to the divine Mother…is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Fulgetius: …by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven. Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.

Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.

“The Catholic Church has always and with justice put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God.”

(Leo XIII: Encyclical, Supreme Apostolatus, September 1, 1883.) — [p. 32, no. 104]

“... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God so that the Church even addressed to her the words with which we pray to God: ‘Have mercy on sinners.’”

(Leo XIII: Encyclical, Augustissimae, September 12, 1897.) [p. 68; no. 302]

"Only She Can Help You"
by Father Nicholas Gruner, S.T.L., S.T.D. (Cand.)
In this letter introducing The Fatima Crusader Issue 38, Father Gruner discusses the growing lies and deception about Russia's errors and the consecration of that nation. He also reminds us that, while it is urgent that we be informed about and fight for Our Lady's cause, we must ask for Her help and intercession.

In the Fatima sanctuary, at the exact spot where Our Lady appeared, Father Gruner pays homage to Her while touching the original statue of Fatima. Father Gruner was recently graced with this rare opportunity since normally this sacred image is always protected by a glass covering which completely surrounds it all day long.

Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
In this article taken from The Glories of Mary, Saint Alphonsus explains that there are countless souls in Heaven who are there now only because Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them there. If a soul persists in true devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, She will certainly lead that soul to Heaven.

The Rosary
by Father Stefano Manelli, S.T.D.
It is greatly important that Our Lady insisted on the Rosary. When at Fatima She spoke of the salvation of sinners, of the ruin of souls in hell, of wars and peace, and of the future of our age. Our Lady indicated and recommended the Rosary as the prayer that saves, that brings peace, that preserves the faith.

Hail Mary, Full of Grace
by Father Stefano Manelli, S.T.D.
It is truly a treasure to have a strong devotion to Our Lady, for it is She who unites us to Jesus and brings us to Heaven, as this article explains.

Mary, Our Life, Our Sweetness, Our Hope
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
St. Alphonsus de Liguori explains how Mary is our life, how She is our sweetness, and how She is our hope.

The historical record of the worship of Mary accumulated by St. Alphonsus de Liguori who wrote “The Glories of Mary” in the year 1745, which has been since translated into English and printed again and again and again with the full affirmation and imprimatur of the official Roman Catholic Church. In this book there is the sum of all the glories of Mary which has been vouchsafe to the Roman Catholic Church and the Church itself calls upon all its constituents to give Mary that honor she is due. She is identified as Mary, our Queen; Mary, our mother; Mary, our life; Mary, our sweetness; Mary, our hope; Mary, our help; Mary, our Mediatress; Mary, our advocate; Mary, our guardian; and Mary, our salvation. It is said that Mary delivers us from hell, Mary delivers us from purgatory, and Mary leads us to heaven. And it should be said that de Liguori, who collected all the Marion dogma and devotion, was himself one of the most celebrated and revered authorities in the Roman Catholic Church. De Liguori was himself a cardinal in life, and a saint in death.

Jesus said "Without Me you can do nothing". In this crisis which looms ahead of us, Our Lady has told us that we need Her help, Her intercession. We must ask for Her help with the Rosary and the Scapular.

At Fatima, Our Lady told us very plainly that "Only I can help you". Today more than ever is this so true.

Pray the Rosary and sacrifice yourself for Our Lady.

I urge you to also make some sacrifices as Our Lady of Fatima asked us. For those who are able, do some fasting. If you can, abstain from meat by eating meat only during one meal a day. Try to do this for two days, even ten days or 30 days. Of course we should abstain totally from meat every Friday.

Jesus and Mary — Our Hope

It is so urgent that we reach as many souls as possible before it is too late. Let us be of good cheer and remember the words of Jesus to each of us, "It's never too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary." That is why it is so important to reach the many millions of souls who do not know this, and who do not know the grave dangers lying in wait for their souls.

No, we must never lose hope. Mary is our hope. She can obtain for us what we cannot by ourselves. Read what St. Alphonsus has to say regarding confidence in Our Lady's intercession in "Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven". Father Manelli also reminds us of the importance of devotion to Our Lady. (See "Hail Mary, Full of Grace"). Our Blessed Mother tells us to turn to Her in confidence. She tells us repeatedly to ask Her intercession through the frequent fervent praying of the Rosary. (See "The Rosary"). She tells us we must pray the Rosary every day. She wants us to pray it many times a day.

http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg2.asp

"Blessed is he whose interior offers the Blessed Virgin Mary a place of repose." Devotion towards the Blessed Virgin remains in all who are the inheritance of Our Lord; that is to say, in all who will praise Him eternally in Heaven.

O, how many blessed souls are now in Heaven who would never have been there had not Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them thither. I made that in the heavens there should rise light that never faileth. Cardinal Hugo, in his commentary on the above text of Ecclesiasticus, says in the name of Mary, "I have caused as many saints in Heaven through Her intercession, who would never have been there but through Her ."

...in the words of St. Ambrose, "Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since Thou hast its keys." "Aperi nobis, O Virgo coelum, cujus claves habes." Nay more, the Church says, that "Thou art its gate."

St. Antoninus tells us "that this divine Mother has already, by Her assistance and prayers, obtained Heaven for us, provided we put no obstacle in the way."23 Hence, says Abbot Guerric, "he who serves Mary, and for whom She intercedes, is as certain of Heaven as if he was already there."24 St. John Damascene also says, "that to serve Mary and be Her courtier is the greatest honor we can possibly possess; for to serve the Queen of Heaven is already to reign there, and live under Her commands is more than to govern."25 On the other hand, he adds, "that those who do not serve Mary will not be saved; for those who are deprived of the help of this great Mother are also deprived of that of Her Son and of the whole court of heaven."26

23. "Coeleste nobis regnum, suo interventu auxiliis, et precibus, impetravit."—Paciucch. Sup. Salve Reg. exc. I.
24. "Qui Virgini famulatur, ita securus est de paradiso, ac si esset in paradiso."
25. "Summus honor, servire Mariæ, et de ejus esse familia; etenim ei servire, regnare est; et ejus agi frænis, summa libertas."
26. "Gens quæ non servierit illi, peribit; gentes destitutæ tantæ Matris auxilio, destituuntur auxilio Filii et totius curi’‘ coelestis."— De Laud. B. M. I. 4.

Cardinal Hugo http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg3.asp

I go to Confession for forgiveness.

Completely biblical. Look it up.

Sitting in a little closet?

That does not describe *going to confession*.

And God also PROMISED this:

1 John 1:7-10 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, *HE* is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

God promises us forgiveness if we confess. He NEVER doesn't forgive us and no way that He gave any sinful, easily corruptible man the power to retain someone's sins and send them to hell.

The fruit of that is the evil and corruption of indulgences.

Since the interpretation that priests can retain sins goes against the whole weight of Scripture, then it MUST be wrong.

I thought that those were just Christian churches. Btw, are you a former Mormon, just out of curiosity, if you don’t mind my asking?

Our FR Catholics INSIST that Catholicism STARTED with Peter, and that ALL churches from ~33AD to the reformation have been CATHOLIC.

I am merely pointing out that Lucy has some 'splainin' to do.

No; never been a Mormon.

The first Mormon I ever met was a guy in the Air Force. We never talked about religion.

The first Book of MORMON I ever saw was in a small motel nightstand in Utah back in '63.

I've still got it.

ebb tibe apparently isn’t equipped to answer even the most basic of questions concerning the Catholic faith.

Sure he is!

It's just that his 'answers' leave a lot to be desired in the way of facts.

Of course, non-Catholics always feel free to claim they believe what Christ said while they're totally contradicting what Christ Himself said.

Doncha just HATE it when this happens!!?

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Ya want it in CONTEXT???

John 6 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)

The Bread from Heaven

²²The next day the crowd that had stayed on the other side of the lake saw that there had been only one boat there. They also saw that Jesus had not got into the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. ²³Then some boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks.^[f] ²⁴So when the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum looking for Jesus.

²⁵When they found him on the other side of the lake, they said to him, ‘Rabbi, when did you come here?’ ²⁶Jesus answered them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. ²⁷Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal.’ ²⁸Then they said to him, ‘What must we do to perform the works of God?’ ²⁹Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.’ ³⁰So they said to him, ‘What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing? ³¹Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, “He gave them bread from heaven to eat.”’ ³²Then Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. ³³For the bread of God is that which^[g] comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.’ ³⁴They said to him, ‘Sir, give us this bread always.’

³⁵Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. ³⁶But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. ³⁷Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; ³⁸for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. ³⁹And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. ⁴⁰This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.’

⁴¹Then the Jews began to complain about him because he said, ‘I am the bread that came down from heaven.’ ⁴²They were saying, ‘Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, “I have come down from heaven”?’ ⁴³Jesus answered them, ‘Do not complain among yourselves. ⁴⁴No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. ⁴⁵It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught by God.” Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. ⁴⁶Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. ⁴⁷Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. ⁴⁸I am the bread of life. ⁴⁹Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. ⁵⁰This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. ⁵¹I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.’

Sure, say the magic words when you're five years old and live any way you like until the day you die. Gotcha.

You keep on with the cheap grace scam if you like, but it's just another way of not coming to the light because your deeds are evil.

“I would agree. I think that the subsequent edition clarifies the original. The first edition was not incorrect, but incomplete.”

Agreed.