Posted on 12/12/2017 5:34:21 PM PST by marshmallow
Catholics can choose to be immersed or to have the water poured over them.
Where did you get the idea of just sprinkling?
.
Wrong. The RCC does not teach Biblical Grace. When I realized I was saved by grace, and not my own works/justification/sacraments/deeds, etc. - I was shocked and amazed by Christ's gift.
Thus, you should have known - if you were knowledgeable about the Catholic Faith - but you did not.
I posted the links to the RCC Catechism and pointed out the differences, but you are unable to discern these.
Error: SkyPilot insinuates that the Catholic Church taught otherwise (i.e. that Grace is not a gift of Christ.
The RCC says it is a gift, and then (in black and white) follows that with a bunch of nonsense and lies. I posted them. There is "this" grace and "that" grace....all of un-Biblical.
SkyPilot erroneously insinuated that the Catholic Church teaches that we are justified by something other than grace won for us by Christ on the Cross.
Because the RCC teaches EXACTLY that error!
And you had a hissy fit because I excerpted paragraphs with .... between them for brevity. As if I was making things up from the RCC Catechism. Not true, and you know it.
Here is what your own Catechism says:
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42 1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy. 1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being: Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45
That is NOT justification based on Grace alone, through Faith alone. It is a bunch of nonsense and adds to God's Word.
Woe to those who do that.
Error: SkyPilot literally created a paragraph out of texts drawn from the CCC by cutting entire passages, paragraph numbers.
I even posted the link for you above the excerpt, and still you are complaining.
Second, I do actually believe in “real Grace”.
No you don't. Not if you are buying the RCC teaching on Grace.
Error: SkyPilot suggests that the Catholic Church teaches about the gospel in a way and about salvation in a way that is at variance with truth. Evidence: SkyPilot has repeatedly touted a nominal belief in sola scriptura. Yet, although a nominal believer in sola scriptura, he ignores passages that show: 1) We are saved by grace which we receive for both faith and works. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0
ERROR yourself! Lol!
James 2:24 is the often passage that Catholics cite to "prove" we are not saved by faith alone, but it is Faith+Works.
This passage was at the heart of the Reformation, and why Luther was excommunicated.
https://www.ligonier.org/blog/faith-and-works/
And this passage from that link says it best:
"What James is saying is this: If a person says he has faith, but he gives no outward evidence of that faith through righteous works, his faith will not justify him. Martin Luther, John Calvin, or John Knox would absolutely agree with James. We are not saved by a profession of faith or by a claim to faith. That faith has to be genuine before the merit of Christ will be imputed to anybody. You can’t just say you have faith. True faith will absolutely and necessarily yield the fruits of obedience and the works of righteousness. Luther was saying that those works don’t add to that person’s justification at the judgment seat of God. But they do justify his claim to faith before the eyes of man. James is saying, not that a man is justified before God by his works, but that his claim to faith is shown to be genuine as he demonstrates the evidence of that claim of faith through his works."
By claiming that we are saved only by Faith+Works - you and the RCC are telling people "God owes me!"
Rubbish. And blasphemy.
Error: SkyPilot says the following is not Biblical “even remotely”: “1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification 594 or immediately,595 — or immediate and everlasting damnation.596”
You think that Hebrews 9:27 means the RCC is correct that we cannot know we are saved?
Hebrews 9:27 - 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Death is each of our lot. We are all appointed to die. Once we die, we do not suffer death again. Just as Christ died for us, His sacrifice atoned for our sins. Moreover, there are two judgments: one for the believer in Christ (the Bema seat), and another for the unbeliever (The Great White Throne Judgment). A believer will suffer loss or gain, but it has nothing to do with Salvation whatsoever. They are saved by Grace, through Faith, from Hell. THAT is what 2 Corinthians 5:10 says:
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Not that our Works save us!!!
A Christian is free from the bondage of death because Christ's death has removed our sin from us. Read Colossians 2:11-14.
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[a] was put off when you were circumcised by[b] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
The Roman Catholic Church does not teach the Truth regarding Scripture.
They twist it, just as you have done, in order to confuse, to malign, and to lead people astray.
Blind guides.
There is nothing in Scripture that states that baptism leaves a mark of any kind on anyone's soul.
That's a complete fabrication.
Yet you keep making that assertion.
Do you have some official, church defined and approved statement to that effect? Or is it just a claim that you keep making?
All you need to do is to sit down with a priest and get your questions answered.
And your usual assumption that just because someone left Catholicism they must have *unanswered questions*. Exactly what questions do you think we'd have?
On the contrary, I don't have any questions about Catholicism. I compared its teachings to Scripture and that answered them already, hence my decision to leave that church. and follow JESUS.
You keep claiming that those who left have unanswered questions. How do you know? Or are you just assuming?
It has become clear to me over the years that Catholics are just totally incapable of comprehending that someone could investigate Catholicism, or be raised in it, and choose to NOT follow it any more.
What depth of indoctrination and mind control!
You guys sure are typin’ a lot today!
Anyone reading it?
SP, along with the Catholic misunderstanding of what grace is, is the fact that they think it can be merited, or earned.
But what they don't realize is that the minute merit comes into it, it ceases to be grace, it becomes wages due for acts or work performed.
Grace in its very essence is unmerited and freely given.
And Catholics just don't get it.
Where sin abounds grace much more abounds and without sin, there is no grace.
Error: There is a difference between Biblical teachings on grace and Catholic teachings on grace.
Evidence: 1) SkyPilot offers no evidence of his own for his point. 2) As the CCC shows, Catholic teaching on grace is grounded in scripture.
8) Dec. 13, 2017: “When I realized I was saved by grace, and not my own works/justification/sacraments/deeds, etc. - I was shocked and amazed by Christ's gift.”
Error: SkyPilot suggests the Catholic Church does not teach that we are saved by grace and are instead saved by our own works.
Evidence: As demonstrated earlier – from Catholic catechisms no less – the Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace alone and that we are not justified by our own works/merits.
9) Dec. 13, 2017: “When I realized I was saved by grace, and not my own works/justification/sacraments/deeds, etc. - I was shocked and amazed by Christ's gift.”
Error: SkyPilot suggests “sacraments” are our “deeds”.
Evidence: Sacraments were instituted by Christ – as is the constant teaching of the Catholic Church. Sacraments are HIS works, not ours. As the CCC notes:
1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.
10) Dec. 13, 2017: “I posted the links to the RCC Catechism and pointed out the differences, but you are unable to discern these.”
Error: SkyPilot makes the mistake of assuming his failure to demonstrate how Catholic and Biblical teachings on grace differ is somehow my fault to discern properly.
Evidence: Logically, showing that Protestants have DIFFERENT views from Catholics in no way shows Catholics have different views from Scripture. That logically makes no sense. Even an atheist would realize that that might merely show that Protestants are the ones who differ with Scripture.
11) Dec. 13, 2017: “The RCC says it is a gift, and then (in black and white) follows that with a bunch of nonsense and lies. I posted them. There is "this" grace and "that" grace....all of un-Biblical.”
Errors: 1) SkyPilot says the passages in the CCC are “lies”. 2) SkyPilot says the detailed passages in the CCC are “un-Biblical” merely because they discuss “’this’ grace” and “’that’ grace”.
Evidence: SkyPilot offered no evidence whatsoever that there was a single “lie” in the section he himself linked to. We will continually fail to do so as well. The passages which he dismisses as “un-Biblical” are in fact Biblical and cannot logically be considered “un-Biblical” simply because they discuss details about grace.
12) Dec. 13, 2017: “Because the RCC teaches EXACTLY that error!”
Error: This is what SkyPilot was responding to: “SkyPilot erroneously insinuated that the Catholic Church teaches that we are justified by something other than grace won for us by Christ on the Cross.”
Evidence: The passages I posted from Catholic catechisms show that SkyPilot is wrong on this point. This is not a matter of opinion. The texts are there. SkyPilot has to essentially insist they do not exist to have a chance to be right. He is not even insisting on that.
13) Dec. 13, 2017: “And you had a hissy fit because I excerpted paragraphs with .... between them for brevity.”
Error: SkyPilot thinks I am upset he used ellipses.
Evidence: I never once mentioned the ellipses. I mentioned the following: “SkyPilot literally created a paragraph out of texts drawn from the CCC by cutting entire passages, paragraph numbers. In other words, what was neatly and soundly laid out in the CCC was forced into a “hodge podge” by SkyPilot.”
14) Dec. 13, 2017: “As if I was making things up from the RCC Catechism. Not true, and you know it.”
Error: You are “mind reading”. That is a violation of board rules. Also, I did not say you were “making things up from the RCC Catechism”.
Evidence: First of all, there is no such thing as the “RCC Catechism”. Second, I said “what was neatly and soundly laid out in the CCC was forced into a “hodge podge” by SkyPilot.”
15) Dec. 13, 2017: “That is NOT justification based on Grace alone, through Faith alone. It is a bunch of nonsense and adds to God's Word.”
Error: SkyPilot mistakes his own Protestant views for Biblical views and then assumes Catholic teachings are at variance with Biblical views because he mistakes what Biblical views are. Also, he erroneously believes the detailed teachings about grace in the CCC are a “bunch of nonsense and adds to God's Word.”
Evidence: SkyPilot continues to completely fail in offering any evidence for his assertions. This will continue most likely. Protestant views were created in the 16th century. Logically they are latter day beliefs and not scriptural.
Error: SkyPilot literally created a paragraph out of texts drawn from the CCC by cutting entire passages, paragraph numbers.
16) Dec. 13, 2017: “I even posted the link for you above the excerpt, and still you are complaining.”
Error: SkyPilot mischaracterizes why I complained.
Evidence: I complained that he created a “hodge podge” and tried to foist it on the CCC.
17) Dec. 13, 2017: “This passage was at the heart of the Reformation, and why Luther was excommunicated.” [i.e. James 2:24]
Error: Why Luther was excommunicated. Evidence: No where in the document through which Luther was excommunicated – Exsurge Domine - is James mentioned: https://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/l10exdom.htm
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/darmstrong/50-reasons-why-martin-luther-was-excommunicated
18) Dec. 13, 2017: “By claiming that we are saved only by Faith+Works - you and the RCC are telling people "God owes me!"”
Error: SkyPilot actually said I – or someone? – is claiming people are saved by “Faith+Works” and then goes on to say that is “Rubbish. And blasphemy.”
Evidence: I believe we are saved by grace.
19) Dec. 13, 2017: “You think that Hebrews 9:27 means the RCC is correct that we cannot know we are saved?”
Error: SkyPilot mistakes why I cited Hebrews 9:27.
Evidence: Here is what was posted by me in the previous post: [From the CCC] “Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death”
Hebrews 9:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10.
[From the CCC] “in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven”
Again, Hebrews 9:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10.
In other words, I cited Hebrews 9:27 to show we are judged at death. I did not post Hebrews 9:27 to “that Hebrews 9:27 means the RCC is correct that we cannot know we are saved?” How can SkyPilot literally miss this point when there are two clear statements to which I appended the Hebrews citation and neither one of them referred to “we cannot know we are saved”.
20) Dec. 13, 2017: “Not that our Works save us!!!”
Error: SkyPilot suggests that I am claiming we are saved by our own “Works”.
Evidence: We are saved by grace and grace alone. I already posted passages from the CCC that clearly say that grace saves us and we do not merit salvation on our own.
That's at least 20 errors in only three or four posts on your part.
Did they ask the one month old baby which they'd prefer?
I am!
There is not one former Catholic who has gotten saved and left the Catholic church who ever indicated in the least that they did so because of something they didn't understand or they had 1questios they didn't know they could go to a priest to have answered.
Your assumption that they couldn't figure that out themselves is condescending at the very least.
Every Catholic I've seen on this board who has left gives the same reason. They compared the teachings of Scripture to the teachings of Catholicism and found them incompatible and have chosen to follow Scripture and Jesus instead of Catholicism and man.
A keeper, 36 inches to the yard.
What a lot of hog wash -— knock it off, p l e a s e
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 5:1-6 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
What of daniel1212’s post do you consider “hog wash”?
Christ didn’t *merit* grace.
Grace can’t be merited and since Jesus never sinned, grace does not kick in for Him.
He IS getting what he deserves.
Could you be more specific?
Where is he wrong and why?
Please present your case to maintain any semblance of credibility.
Proverbs 26:4-14
4 Don’t answer the foolish arguments of fools, or you will become as foolish as they are. 5 Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools, or they will become wise in their own estimation. 6 Trusting a fool to convey a message is like cutting off one’s feet or drinking poison! 7 A proverb in the mouth of a fool is as useless as a paralyzed leg. 8 Honoring a fool is as foolish as tying a stone to a slingshot. 9 A proverb in the mouth of a fool is like a thorny branch brandished by a drunk. 10 An employer who hires a fool or a bystander is like an archer who shoots at random. 11 As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his foolishness. 12 There is more hope for fools than for people who think they are wise
“All you need to do is to sit down with a priest and get your questions answered.”
Unless your questions deal with Scripture. You will find the average priest has had little training in Bible.
You will do better to read Scripture yourself, asking God to open your eyes and speak to you.
And of course there are many extremely well-trained Bible teachers, pastors, scholars and books to get any questions answered.
Good grief, you don’t have something better to do ????
I do.
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