Posted on 06/08/2018 8:54:57 AM PDT by Salvation
There are a lot of “solos” sung by our Protestant brethren: sola fide (saved by faith alone), sola Scriptura (Scripture alone is the rule of faith), and sola gratia (grace alone). Generally, one ought to be leery of claims that things work “alone.” Typically, many things work together in harmony; things are interrelated. Very seldom is anyone or anything really “alone.”
The problem with “solos” emerges (it seems to me) in our mind, where it is possible to separate things out; but just because we can separate something out in our mind does not mean that we can do so in reality.
Consider, for a moment, a candle’s flame. In my mind, I can separate the heat of the flame from its light, but I could never put a knife into the flame and put the heat of the flame on one side of it and the light on the other. In reality, the heat and light are inseparable—so together as to be one.
I would like to argue that it is the same with things like faith and works, grace and transformation, Scripture and the Church. We can separate all these things out in our mind, but in reality, they are one. Attempting to separate them from what they belong to leads to grave distortions and to the thing in question no longer being what it is claimed to be. Rather, it becomes an abstraction that exists only on a blackboard or in the mind of a theologian.
Let’s look at the three main “solos” of Protestant theology. I am aware that there are non-Catholic readers of this blog, so please understand that my objections are made with respect. I am also aware that in a short blog I may oversimplify, and thus I welcome additions, clarifications, etc. in the comments section.
Solo 1: Faith alone (sola fide) – For 400 years, Catholics and Protestants have debated the question of faith and works. In this matter, we must each avoid caricaturing the other’s position. Catholics do not and never have taught that we are saved by works. For Heaven’s sake, we baptize infants! We fought off the Pelagians. But neither do Protestants mean by “faith” a purely intellectual acceptance of the existence of God, as many Catholics think that they do.
What concerns us here is the detachment of faith from works that the phrase “faith alone” implies. Let me ask, what is faith without works? Can you point to it? Is it visible? Introduce me to someone who has real faith but no works. I don’t think one can be found. About the only example I can think of is a baptized infant, but that’s a Catholic thing! Most Baptists and Evangelicals who sing the solos reject infant baptism.
Hence it seems that faith alone is something of an abstraction. Faith is something that can only be separated from works in our minds. If faith is a transformative relationship with Jesus Christ, we cannot enter into that relationship while remaining unchanged. This change affects our behavior, our works. Even in the case of infants, it is possible to argue that they are changed and do have “works”; it’s just that they are not easily observed.
Scripture affirms that faith is never alone, that such a concept is an abstraction. Faith without works is dead (James 2:26). Faith without works is not faith at all because faith does not exist by itself; it is always present with and causes works through love. Galatians 5:6 says, For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love. Hence faith works not alone but through love. Further, as Paul states in 1 Corinthians 13:2, if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
Hence faith alone is the null set. True faith is never alone; it bears the fruit of love and the works of holiness. Faith ignites love and works through it. Beware of the solo “faith alone” and ask where faith, all by itself, can be found.
Solo 2: Grace alone (sola gratia) – By its very nature grace changes us. Again, show me grace apart from works. Grace without works is an abstraction. It cannot be found apart from its effects. In our mind it may exist as an idea, but in reality, grace is never alone.
Grace builds on nature and transforms it. It engages the person who responds to its urges and gifts. If grace is real, it will have its effects and cannot be found alone or apart from works. It cannot be found apart from a real flesh-and-blood human who is manifesting its effects.
Solo 3: Scripture alone (sola Scriptura) – Beware those who say, “sola Scriptura!” This is the claim that Scripture alone is the measure of faith and the sole authority for the Christian, that there is no need for a Church and no authority in the Church, that there is only authority in the Scripture.
There are several problems with this.
First, Scripture as we know it (with the full New Testament) was not fully assembled and agreed upon until the 4th century.
It was Catholic bishops, in union with the Pope, who made the decision as to which books belonged in the Bible. The early Christians could not possibly have lived by sola scriptura because the Scriptures were not even fully written in the earliest years. And although collected and largely completed in written form by 100 AD, the set of books and letters that actually made up the New Testament was not agreed upon until the 4th century.
Second, until recently most people could not read.
Given this, it seems strange that God would make, as the sole rule of faith, a book that people had to read on their own. Even today, large numbers of people in the world cannot read well. Hence, Scripture was not necessarily a read text, but rather one that most people heard and experienced in and with the Church through her preaching, liturgy, art, architecture, stained glass, passion plays, and so forth.
Third, and most important, if all you have is a book, then that book needs to be interpreted accurately.
Without a valid and recognized interpreter, the book can serve to divide more than to unite. Is this not the experience of Protestantism, which now has tens of thousands of denominations all claiming to read the same Bible but interpreting it in rather different manners?
The problem is, if no one is Pope then everyone is Pope! Protestant “soloists” claim that anyone, alone with a Bible and the Holy Spirit, can authentically interpret Scripture. Well then, why does the Holy Spirit tell some people that baptism is necessary for salvation and others that it is not necessary? Why does the Holy Spirit tell some that the Eucharist really is Christ’s Body and Blood and others that it is only a symbol? Why does the Holy Spirit say to some Protestants, “Once saved, always saved” and to others, “No”?
So, it seems clear that Scripture is not meant to be alone. Scripture itself says this in 2 Peter 3:16: our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, Our Brother Paul speaking of these things [the Last things] as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Hence Scripture itself warns that it is quite possible to misinterpret Scripture.
Where is the truth to be found? The Scriptures once again answer this: you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).
Hence Scripture is not to be read alone. It is a document of the Lord through the Church and must be read in the context of the Church and with the Church’s authoritative interpretation and Tradition. As this passage from Timothy says, the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Bible is a Church book and thus is not meant to be read apart from the Church that received the authority to publish it from God Himself. Scripture is the most authoritative and precious document of the Church, but it emanates from the Church’s Tradition and must be understood in the light of it.
Thus, the problems of “singing solo” seem to boil down to the fact that if we separate what God has joined we end up with an abstraction, something that exists only in the mind but in reality, cannot be found alone.
Here is a brief video in which Fr. Robert Barron ponders the Protestant point of view that every baptized Christian has the right to authoritatively interpret the Word of God.sss
So is the New Testament the true teaching of the Apostles or not?
And if so, why does Rome disobey it?
If not, why do you care what someone else believes?
And an answer without throwing insults around would be nice.
Yeah, funny thing there.
Teaching includes writing. So does preaching.
Unless you think that textbooks aren’t ‘REAL’ teaching, and that letters proclaiming Jesus aren’t ‘REAL’ preaching.
As written by those false religions who are trying to deceive true Christians...No, beware of those who say we can't understand the scriptures because they can't understand the scriptures...
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
What concerns us here is the detachment of faith from works that the phrase “faith alone” implies. Let me ask, what is faith without works? Can you point to it?
Well certainly...It's all over the place...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The question is: Why are you spreading the lie that the scripture doesn't speak of faith without works when the glaring proof is right in front of you
Act_2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
No works...
Solo 2: Grace alone (sola gratia) – By its very nature grace changes us.
No it doesn't...Our faith changes us...The Holy Ghost changes us...
Grace is not a magic potion...Grace is 'unmerited favor'...It is a gift from God that allows us to become saved without any works on our part aside from Faith...
First, Scripture as we know it (with the full New Testament) was not fully assembled and agreed upon until the 4th century.
Well of course it was...
No truth to that whatsoever...There likely were hundreds and then thousands of Christians copying scripture hundreds of years before the Catholic religion got it hands on our bible...
Second, until recently most people could not read.
There were plenty of educated Jews and Gentiles in those days...
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (the scriptures).
So of course the scriptures were around back then and not only that...Those scriptures that your religion claims were incomplete and unreliable were what saved millions of people before your religion wrote its own version of the scriptures...
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God (the scriptures), which liveth and abideth for ever.
They weren't waiting around for the Catholic religion to come up with what it claims was a legitimate canon...They were saving people with the words of God that the Holy Ghost brought to their remembrance...
Third, and most important, if all you have is a book, then that book needs to be interpreted accurately.
Another lie put out by the Catholic religion...We don't have just a book...We have the words of God that he preserved forever...And the book tells us we need no other writing or religion to know how to be saved...
There is nothing within the words of God that tell us we need an interpreter to understand God's words...The words are easy...All we need to do is study, pray and believe...
So, it seems clear that Scripture is not meant to be alone. Scripture itself says this in 2 Peter 3:16: our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, Our Brother Paul speaking of these things [the Last things] as he does in all his letters.
In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Hence Scripture itself warns that it is quite possible to misinterpret Scripture.
Well no...It doesn't say Paul's writings are impossible to understand...It says they can be difficult to understand but it's the ignorant and unstable who think they need to be interpreted just as they think the other scriptures need to be interpreted because they can't understand those either...
Where is the truth to be found? The Scriptures once again answer this: you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).
Hence Scripture is not to be read alone. It is a document of the Lord through the Church and must be read in the context of the Church and with the Church’s authoritative interpretation and Tradition.
Well there you go again...Wresting the scriptures trying to prove it says what it don't say...
What holds up the church??? God does of course...When was Truth created??? At the creation of the church...Absolutely not...God is the pillar and ground of the truth just as the scripture states...
The problem is, if no one is Pope then everyone is Pope! Protestant “soloists” claim that anyone, alone with a Bible and the Holy Spirit, can authentically interpret Scripture.
Nope again...Any one with a bible led by the Holy Spirit can 'understand' the scriptures, without private, Catholic interpretation of the clear words of scripture...
Well then, why does the Holy Spirit tell some people that baptism is necessary for salvation and others that it is not necessary? Why does the Holy Spirit tell some that the Eucharist really is Christ’s Body and Blood and others that it is only a symbol? Why does the Holy Spirit say to some Protestants, “Once saved, always saved” and to others, “No”?
The fact that you don't know the answers to those questions shows you have no idea how to rightly divide the word of truth...
God doesn't teach some one thing and others something else...Fact is, God teaches everything you claimed in that paragraph...You just don't know what to do with it...
“Teaching includes writing.”
Funny thing....NOT IN THE FIRST CENTURY!!!
Unless you think some major portion of the population was literate?
The NT is all true and Rome doesn’t “disobey” it.
Some have simply distorted its meaning to compensate for their own shortcomings. (Luther, Calvin).
Sit down, junior.
I was not aware there was a starting time for the discussion nor was I aware you got to determine what people could or could not discuss....but that is like Roman Catholicism...wanting to control the narrative. Kinda reminds me of another organization.
But the Johnny come lately’s can’t admit the NT didn’t fall from the sky at Pentecost, in Times New Roman, #12 font.
What are you.....a sixth grader?
This is really all you have...bluster. Nothing constructive or well thought out.
I think the Rules of Internet debate may apply to you as well. Haven't had to invoke these in a while.
Rules of Internet Debate #1….always use ad hominem attacks.
Rules of Debate #2....have a massive ego and approach others with a condescending attitude
Rules of Internet Debate #4...dwell in the minors trying to make a point.
Rules of Internet Debate #17…will attempt to shift the conversation when the argument is against him.
The Catholic Church is led by Jesus Christ who founded it on the Apostles to carry on his work.
According to mere Catholic men...Fact is, your religion is led by some entity you call Mary while we are led by the written words of God...
You mean some returned to the plain meaning of the text removing the distortions of the Roman sect.
Unless you think some major portion of the population was literate?
***
Enough that the Apostle Paul, the physician Luke, the Apostle Matthew, St. Mark, the Apostle John, and the Apostle Peter ALL wrote letters to people, and obviously expected them to be understood!
And among the Jews, where the Scriptures that we nowadays call the Old Testament were all WRITTEN and they had a very strong WRITTEN tradition?
Yeah, I’d say that ‘teaching includes writing.’
“Funny thing....NOT IN THE FIRST CENTURY!!! Unless you think some major portion of the population was literate”
...........
“Concerning the 1st century, one of the favorite sayings of Jesus in rebuttal to his accusers was: “Have you not read…” This not only implied literacy to his opponents, but also to himself and to his apostles whom he taught, for why would he use the phrase against his accusers, if they could turn around and cast his own words in his teeth to point out the illiteracy of his followers? Jesus’ parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:6-7) implied literacy in the normal course of business in the Jewish society. This is also borne out in some archeological finds dating to the 12th century BCE where Israelite inscriptions are found on pottery and artifacts showing literacy was not exclusive to the elite.[3] Moreover, just before the Jewish revolt, the high priest Joshua ben Gamala (cir. 64 C.E.) declared that teachers would be appointed in every town of every province throughout Palestine. Their purpose was to provide an education for every male of the age of six or seven and upward. One teacher would serve a community of up to 25 students. A teacher’s assistant would be added for communities having up to 50 students and for communities having more than 50 students two teachers would be provided.[4]”
https://coffeehouseapologetics.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/were-most-ancient-jews-illiterate/
Rome adds to it. This is distortion of the truth and disobedience to what is written.Rome ignores it. This is perverts the truth and is disobedience.
Once again...glarry is wrong on what he thinks he is correct about.
The indications, especially on the evidence of the papyri, are that the literacy rate of Hellenistic and early Roman times was rather high, probably higher than at any period prior to modern times....pages 111-112.
The Jewish child was expected to be able to read the Hebrew Scriptures, to memorize a standard translation in his own language if not Hebrew and to recite certain parts of the liturgy. There was a great emphasis on memorizing Scripture. p 112
So if the NT is all true...
Why are you getting so angry that we’re pointing out where Rome’s teaching contradicts Scripture, hmmm?
I mean, you haven’t even defended how ‘not by works so that no man can boast’ REALLY means ‘yes by works, even though it requires ignoring the definition of what grace is.’
All you’ve been doing so far is yelling slogans, insults, and accusations at us and accusing us of teaching things that we do not, in fact, teach.
The Jewish child was expected to be able to read the Hebrew Scriptures, to memorize a standard translation in his own language if not Hebrew and to recite certain parts of the liturgy. There was a great emphasis on memorizing Scripture. p 112
***
Probably a lot more Scripturally literate than a lot of our youth are today, sadly!
So, what, they just did it cuz it was fun???
You DO get it that holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, right? And that they had the example of the Old Testament scriptures THAT WERE WRITTEN as examples to follow, right? Peter, John, James, Jude and Paul WROTE epistles to the churches and expected them to be read, obeyed, copied and passed around. Did you know that?
You know, if I didn't know better, I'd think some Catholics don't really have much respect for the Bible.
They respect the Bible in the same way that the Pharisees respected the Scriptures.
Are you familiar with the following:
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. (Romans 4:1-3)
So, clearly in just these two passages we learn that NO ONE is justified by the Law of Moses and to emphasize that point, Paul cites Abraham who was justified by faith without the Law of Moses because he lived 400 years before Moses was given the law. Your argument crashes and burns!
And as a parting gift, we are not even saved by ANY good works whether it's obeying the commandments or corporal works of mercy:
Facts always seem to derail the RCC position.
It's your opinion because it's what they want you to believe happened. In truth, the churches were to be in subjection to the word of God just as their elder brothers the Jews were commanded to be to the writings of Moses and the Prophets.
Here is a great article to help you learn about that: The Formation of the New Testament Canon
I love these threads. There’s always so much Scripture that I know I’ve read but hasn’t been at the forefront in my mind for too long, and then bam, someone brings it up, and the Word does what the Word does, and it’s AWESOME.
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