Posted on 04/14/2021 12:53:32 AM PDT by Cronos
hat Jesus said in KJV from John 6:5. Those in brackets are inferences from the text
5. Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
10. Make the men sit down
(11. Thanks to God. Distribute the bread and fishes)
12. Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
20. It is I; be not afraid.
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26. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
29. This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent
32. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
35. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
43. Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
53. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
61. Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not.
65. Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
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This is the work of God - that you believe Him who He has sent.
God, My Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is HE which cometh down from heaven and giveth life unto the world.
I am the bread of life
Ye also have seen me and believe not
I cam down from heaven to do the will of Him that sent me.
I am that bread of life.
This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof and not die.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever;
and the bread that I will give is my flesh
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.\
For my flesh is meat indeed
He that eateth my flesh dwelleth in me
he that eateth me, even he shall live by me
If that includes Able then it predates the Papacy. Mystery Babylon may include the Papacy, but it is not the Papacy.
In the “general” sense, you are right. But speaking specifically of Daniel and Revelation and the apostles, you are not correct. In real time, it represents the Papacy and that was certainly the case for the Reformers, especially during the dark ages and the inquisitions. Here are two commentaries for your consideration. The second commentary is from my church (SDA), and has more detail.
Coffman Commentaries:
Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood ... prophets ... saints ... and of all that have been slain upon the earth ... Is this mere hyperbole? No! If the religious wars promulgated to advance the harlot’s designs are remembered, the figure appears appropriate enough. Furthermore, the murder of one is, in principle, the murder of all. There is no single literal city of earth that answers to this, not even Rome. It is the spirit of lawlessness and apostasy from the truth, spectacularly represented in the harlot; it is that whole religious apparatus moving throughout history and responsible for wholesale deaths all over the world. Also, there is something else in it.
Jesus told Jerusalem that in their murder of the Messiah all of the blood shed from Abel until that very day would come upon her. (See pertinent comment on this in my Commentary on Matthew, pp. 373,374.) In exactly that same way, the system that murdered the Christians, the true spiritual body of Christ, was chargeable with all the blood ever shed on earth. The two cases are exactly parallel.
SDA Bible Commentary:
Rev 18:24
24. Blood. See on chs. 16:6; 17:6.
Prophets. See on v. 20.
All that were slain. Mystical Babylon represents apostate religion since the beginning
of time (see on chs. 14:8; 17:5, 13). However, chs. 13 to 18 are concerned most
particularly with the culmination of apostasy at the end of time. Thus, in a general sense,
“all that were slain” may properly include the martyrs of all time, but emphasis here is
doubtless on those who lay down their lives in the closing struggle of the great
controversy between good and evil, and probably also those whom Babylon purposes to
slay but is prevented from slaying, by divine intervention (see on ch. 17:6; cf. Isa. 47:6;
Jer. 51:47–49).
It is hard to include an event that happened in 1798 in end times discussions.
1260 years of Catholic rule and persecution is historically documented. It is a fact. 538-1798
No, not so hard, if you know what to look for (and you should, with your family SDA history that you talk about)
The 1260 years of Papal Supremacy
http://aloha.net/~mikesch/1260years.htm
The Catholic Church which was founded and instituted by Our Lord Jesus Christ to procure the eternal salvation of men, has, by reason of this divine institution, the form of a perfect society. Therefore, she must possess liberty such that she cannot be subject to any civil power in the execution of her sacred ministry.
To act with freedom, as it is just she should, she has always needed the assistance which was suitable to the conditions and the necessities of the age. It is, therefore, by a particular decree of Divine Providence that, at the fall of the Roman Empire and its partition into separate kingdoms, the Roman Pontiff, whom Christ made the head and center of his entire Church, acquired civil power.
Certainly, it was by a most wise design of God Himself that in the midst of so great a multitude and variety of temporal princes, the Sovereign Pontiff enjoyed political liberty, which is so necessary for him to exercise his spiritual power, his authority, and his jurisdiction over the whole world.
Source: Papal Teachings: The Church, selected and arranged by the Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, translated by Mother E. O'Gorman, R.S.C.J., Manhattanville College of the Sacred Heart, St. Paul Editions, Boston, © 1980, 1962 by Daughters of St. Paul, Library of Congress catalog card number 62-12454, par. #225, page 160.
THE RESTRAINER OF THE ANTICHRIST IS PAGAN ROME.
http://aloha.net/~mikesch/1260years.htm
...thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape. (Deuteronomy 32:11-14)
“Pure” means “as freshly pressed” liquid in clean presses from the grapes, filtered to remove contamination, concentrated and kept cool to preserve the juice for future wholesome use; not half-rotted (sugars converted by hydroxylation to ethanol toxin) nor fully-rotted (sugars fully oxidized to acetic acid to make vinegar).
This thread is still going? Oh well, see you in the clouds, at the pre trib rapture. 😊✌️
When first pressed, the wine is purple, The anthocyanin color centers pass both light of the blue end of the spectrum and of the red end, thus the wine looks purple. When the sugars are converted to the toxin ethanol the anthocyanins in this environment no longer pass the blue light, but absorb all but the red, so the color is changed to red only.
From this any student of the scriptures can judge the wine to be intoxicating or even acidic, without needing a degree in physical chemistry to prove it.
God says not to drink red wine (or vinegar). In the red state it is poisonous. It bites like a venomous snake. Jesus knew enough not to make or drink red wine; omly the purple kind, which we call "juice."
And again, even more useful data! Thanks, Bro, see you in the pretrib Rapture / Departure clouds.
Did you ever think that red wine might be the sepent’s drink? Poisonous? Why then would that be offered in a nominally christian communion service?
I recently purchased grape juice for home communion. I used wine for years as an Episcopalian. That sect went the way of secularism and I left. Now I do communion and will use grape juice hereafter fer shur, Bro. See you in the pre-trib departure clouds.
There you go again, eisegesis, reading into scripture what you want to see, without doing a careful study to expose your ignorance.
Regarding the word "pure" (Strong's Number H2561) found only once in the OT in Elsie's reference, Deuteronomy 32:14, that is spelled in the Hebrew cheth mem resh, with vowel pointing such that it is pronounced pronounced "chemer" (kheh'-mer); a noun. You claimed the above, then this:
pure, red wine; From chamar; wine (as fermenting) -- X pure, red wine.
But then you (deliberately misleading?) left out the critical fact that this word is not Strong's number H2560, with the same Hebrew consonants, but a different vowel pointing that is pronounced "chamar: (khaw-mar') and thus has an opposite sense to H2561 chemer (meaning "pure"), a verb; and instead means "foul."
The juice of grapes when expressed from the grapes in clean equipment, fresh, and filtered to remove contaminants like naturally-occurring yeasts or other particulates is then pure and able to be preserved in its fermentable (but as yet unfermented) state; and passes red light, but also blue. Yes, it is red when unfermented and still pure, but also blue (the middle wavelengths being blocked through absorption of the middle wavelengths), so that one perceives it to appear purple, a mixture of the two colors.
But when the transmission of the blue is cancelled by the fermenting that turns the sugars into alcohol (anaerobic fermentation) or by God's natural process of rotting it by aerobic conversion to acetic acid, the rotting (and if unfiltered also makes scum) then it becomes foul, impure, and not fit for drinking in religious observances, such as in communion. Strong's concordance says this about the chamar impure stuff:
"A primitive root; properly to boil up; hence to ferment (with scum); to glow (with redness); as denominative (from H2564) to smear with pitch: - daub, foul, be red, trouble.There are six occurremces of this word in the OT, all of them habing the sense that something wrong or filthy is happening:
Exodus 2:4 daub with slimeYou see? When the wine is fermented, and redH119 only, not red and blue/purpleH713, God says not to drink that kind of wine.
Job 16:16 foul with weeping
Psalm 46:3 waters troubled (tossing, angry waves)
Psalm 75:8 For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is redchamar H2560; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the samebecause of its foulness: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.
Lamentations 1:20, 2:11 my bowels are troubled
It is a foul thing to be mislead to believe that the Righteous Lord Jesus Christ would ever make, use, or give abundances of intoxicating wine to others, and thus mar His adherence to the Law without exception.
>i>Fermented wine
should be: Fermented wine
and further on:
. . . the wine is redchamar H2560; it is full of mixture . . .
should be: . . . the wine is redchamar H2560; it is full of mixture . . .
(There are some other obvious misspellings that you can mentally adjust yourself, but have no great import to the sense of the post/.)
2561 [e] ḥā·mer. חָֽמֶר׃ wine
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Of course the Lord made wine, he created evil too. (Isaiah 45:7.) All of the symbols in scripture are designed to teach. Leaven or yeast, which occurs naturally or can be added to grape juice to produce alcohol which kills the yeast and preserves the juice. Nature increases our understanding of the invisible things.
And tell me why Evil exists, for The God did not create it by sinning. It merely exists when by His permission, the Good that He created is absent.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.Seems like he created darkness too, or was the darkness already there? Do you wonder why God did not say that he created the light? He also knows the difference between wine and grape juice.
The wine made supernaturally, ingested, and given to others by him as at His Last Supper on earth with them was not and could not have been of the form falling into the definition of H2560. The Righteous God would not sin by drinking poisoned, death-dealing fluid that would corrupt the processes that sustain life in the blood and hence the continuing operation of His flesh.
The wine freshly pressed in the winepress from the fruit is at that moment differentiated by applying the Hebrew term "tiyrosh":
"Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine תִּירוֹשׁ is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all" (Is. 65:8AV).Thus it requires two English words to translate one Hebrew word. H8492 is a synonym in Hebrew for H2561 chemer; definitely not H25560 chamar.
The only wine that the Bible reports Jesus making was that at the commencement of His public ministry. It was freshly made with newly drawn water, the suspending medium in which the supernaturally created hydrocarbon components--ex nihilo--characteristic of freshly squeezed juice were dissolved.
There is no reason that He would have also gratuitously inserted a toxin into the created liquid refreshment. To do so would constitute the sin of poisoning people, and furthermore getting them to sin by drinking an intoxicant, which the Bible forbids.
Jesus could not sin at any time, anywhere, in His incarnated existence, else God's Plan of Salvation for humans would have been defeated.
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