John 6 focusing on the words spoken by Jesus {from the King James Version}

Biblegateway ^ | 85 AD | John

[imardmd1]

I think the Bible is a more reliable source.

It is if you know what the words mean, but apparently you do not.

God cannot sin, if that is what you are inferring.

And there is no difference in Hebrew between "yayin" and "tiyrosh." That is, in Hebrew, grape juice is wine and wine can be grape juice. Or it can be "shekar" (strong drink, an intoxicant), which "tiyrosh" can not be. But they both are wine (="yayin").

The Scriptures are not written in English, in which some words, phrases, and idioms can be taken to mean something that the original languages do not. And that is what you are doing to yourself now, by lending the meaning that the translator(s) did not intend for you to presume.

[Seven_0]

God cannot sin, if that is what you are inferring

No I am not. Are you trying to say that Christ cannot drink wine? Is that like saying Christ cannot heal on the Sabbath.

[imardmd1]

What kind of wine are you talking about?

And what feature of ingesting wine makes it comparable to healing?

[Seven_0]

The difference between wine and grape juice is alcohol. Even the "new wine" in Acts 2:13 has alcohol in it. Leaven, which is corruption, is added to the grapes. When sin is mixed with Christ's blood somehow the sin is purged just as the alcohol kills the leaven. The analogy works with wine but not with grape juice. The types in scripture are designed and perfectly fitted to help us understand invisible things. When we get them wrong they don't fit. There are probably many more details we can find.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

I was in a hurry the other night and did not explain my thoughts on this verse. Note there are two pairs of opposites here. Light and darkness; and peace and evil. In each case the second one is created. Created is used when something is brand new.(Genesis 2:3) Note the precision of scripture. God did not create light because God is light and in him is no darkness. Since God is omnipresent, darkness did not exist. I see the second pair essentially the same way though the words "peace" and "evil" say something that I'm missing.

[imardmd1]

The difference between wine and grape juice is alcohol.

This is merely your opinion, an entire product of eisegesis (reading into a text a meaning that is not there), not exegesis (drawing out of a text the meaning that is there).

Your treatment turns a blind eye to practical experience and the observable, provable results of that experience. And in your interpretation, you ignore the differences between the languages used to transmit the underlying thought. You mis-assign the lexical value of the words and turn them to say something they were not intended for.

So to begin with, let me ask you a question:

Have you ever worked in a vineyard, trimmed the vines so as to produce good fruit, gathered the clusters of fruit and packed them for shipment, and seen them transformed into a final fluid product put on a store shelf?

(Note: the only permissible answer is an unreserved "yes" or "no".)

[MHGinTN]

While you two debate this topic, I would point out to you both that yeast exists in the human gut. The new wine can have miniscule amounts of non-alcoholic new wine grape juice fermented in the gut thus aiding in keeping the balance of gut microbes. When Paul told Timothy to take a little 'wine' and not confine himself to only water, was Paul referring to an 'aid to digestion' processes? I think he was. A small amount of alcohol is produced in the gut when new wine meets gut yeast.

BUT do not take that to mean Paul recommended Timothy drink some alcohol laced grape juice. That grape juice can be preserved without introducing alcohol to the 'must' should open the discernment to 'other' uses of the translation word 'wine'.

[imardmd1]

Good observation! And note that Paul might have been permissive to a degree about the medicinal (not recreational) use of fermented fruit juice when he limited the consumption of it to "a little" (not a lot).

Remember, Paul was referring to Tim's asthenia, a general weakness. Doubtless Paul was not speaking without having their coworker Luke as an advisor.

[MHGinTN]

Wasn’t it Paul who also wrote, ‘Be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess’?

[af_vet_1981]

The wine freshly pressed in the winepress from the fruit is at that moment differentiated by applying the Hebrew term "tiyrosh":

Yet this verse has תִיר֖וֹשׁ (new wine) as well, and there is no substantive moral difference, so wine is essentially wine.

Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.

Melech Tzadik (Melchizedek) brought bread and wine.

• And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
• And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
• And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

• For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
• To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
• Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

[Seven_0]

Your treatment turns a blind eye to practical experience and the observable, provable results of that experience. And in your interpretation, you ignore the differences between the languages used to transmit the underlying thought. You mis-assign the lexical value of the words and turn them to say something they were not intended for.

I'm still trying to figure out what you mean here. Scripture gives permission to use the physical attributes of a symbol in our interpretation. If Christ says we are like sheep, it helps to find out what sheep are like.

[Seven_0]

That grape juice can be preserved without introducing alcohol

Grapes have alcohol before they are picked. Alcohol is an intermediate step to production of sugar. It is also the first step in burning sugar. 1 Glucose = 2 Ethonal +2 Carbon Dioxide. It would be difficult to remove all the natural yeast. If there is yeast and sugar then fermentation will occur absent refrigeration even if it were airtight which would cause the bottles to blow up. A little leaven leveneth the whole lump.

If trace amounts matter, then ?

[Seven_0]

Doubtless Paul was not speaking without having their coworker Luke as an advisor.

I haven't heard this. Do you think the writers of scripture knew they were writing scripture? If so, why would they seek an opinion for inspired work? If not, who figured it out?

[MHGinTN]

‘They’ certainly advised the reading of the epistles to all. When the writers of the Gospels penned or dictated their telling, they were under Holy Spirit inspiration, so yes I do believe they knew their Gospel was scripture for the fellow members of the Body of Christ.

[Seven_0]

2 Pet 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

This is evidence that Peter knew that Paul was writing scripture. “Hath written unto you” is evidence that Paul is the author of Hebrews since all of his other letters were written to the gentiles. To my knowledge there is no evidence of a rough draft of any scripture. I wonder if Paul ever studied his letters like we do today.

[MHGinTN]

You are a Berean! See you in the clouds ...

[MHGinTN]

You will like this one ...

[SouthernClaire]

A Berean for certain. Good stuff!

[Elsie]

...just more diffused now...

Perhaps, but we ain't de-fused!

if anything; our fuses are even SHORTER now!!

[Elsie]

During this pandemic, I was tested for patience.
It was negative.