Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Well, y'all know my answer...
Douglas, do you think that prior to Jesus the door was closed between "our reality or physical universe and God"?
Awesome!
Hey, Steven, I was reading the scripture relating to Passover during my days off last week. I came across this, and thought of you:
And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the passover: no foreigner shall eat of it;
but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him.
No sojourner or hired servant may eat of it.
In one house shall it be eaten; you shall not carry forth any of the flesh outside the house; and you shall not break a bone of it.
All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
And when a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.
There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:43-49)
This chapter explains that all Jews are commanded to sanctify God's Name, when to transgress when under a death a threat and when to die, and defines a what constitutes a desecration of God's Name. 1) Every Jew [including women] is commanded to sanctify God's Name, for it is written, "...but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel". We are warned not to desecrate God's Name, as it is written, "Nor shall you desecrate My holy Name"1. What does this mean? If, for example, a gentile forces a Jew to commit a sin by threatening to kill him if he doesn't, then he should commit the sin in order not to be killed, for concerning this commandment it is written, "...which if a man does he shall live by them" - and not die for them. If he allowed himself to be killed by not committing the sin, then he is liable as a suicide [in the World To Come]. 2) This is talking about any sin other than idolatry, adultery and murder, for if a gentile told one to commit one of these sins or else he will kill one, one has to allow oneself to be killed by not committing the sin. This difference [between these three commandments and the others] is applicable only when the gentile intends to receive benefit for himself, by, for example, forcing a Jew to build a house for him on the Sabbath, or cook him a meal on the Sabbath, or by forcing a Jewess to have intercourse with him, but if he just wanted the Jew to sin, then the following applies: If there were no, or fewer than ten, Jews present, then he may save his life by sinning, but if there were ten, or more, Jews present, then he has to allow himself to be killed by not sinning, even if the sin involved is not one of the three mentioned above but is one of the other commandments. 3) These matters do not apply during a time of non-persecution, but at a time of persecution, such as when a wicked king such as Nebuchadnezzar arises and decrees against the Jews that they should forego their religion or one of the commandments, then one may not sin and one should allow oneself to be killed, even if the decree concerns a commandment other than the three mentioned above, and whether one is forced into sinning in the presence of ten, or more, Jews, or not. 4) Anyone who says that he will sin and so not be killed but [in the end] was killed without having sinned is liable as a suicide. Anybody who says that he will not sin and will allow himself to be killed, and is killed without sinning, is sanctifying God's Name. If this happened in the presence of ten, or more, Jews, then it is a public sanctification, like what Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, Azariah and Rabbi Akivah and his colleagues did. These are people who were persecuted by a kingdom and above whose level there isn't one, and about them it is written, "But for Your sake we are killed all the day long; we are considered as sheep for the slaughter", and it is also written about them, "Gather My pious ones together to Me; those that have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice". Anybody who is told to sin, but is not threatened with death if he doesn't, and he does sin, then has desecrated God's Name. If this was in the presence of ten, or more, Jews, then it is a public desecration, and he has abrogated the positive commandment to sanctify God's Name by transgressing the negative commandment not to desecrate it. Even so, he is not liable to flogging, for the reason that the situation was forced on him. It need not be said that he is not executed by a Court of Law even if he was forced to commit murder, for the reason that flogging and execution are only for people who [of their own accord] willingly sin in the presence of witnesses who warned him, for concerning one who gives of his children to Molech it is written, "Then I will set My face against that man". According to tradition, we have learnt that the word "that" comes to exclude those people who are forced to sin, or who do so inadvertently or accidentally. Since one who is forced to commit idolatry, the worst sin of all, is not liable to karet, and it need not be said that he is not executed by a Court of Law either, then how much more so this rule applies to the other commandments of the Torah. Concerning adultery it is written, "...but you shall do nothing to the girl". {If, however, one could have saved oneself by running away from the [jurisdiction of the] wicked king but one didn't, then one is like a dog who returns to its vomit, and one receives the status of a wilful sinner [with respect to idolatry], and one will be banished from the World To Come and descend to the depth of Hades.} 5) If a group of gentiles said to a group of [Jewish] women, `Give us one of you and we will debauch her, or else we will debauch all of you', then they [may not select a `victim' and] must allow themselves all to be debauched, and they may not hand over to them even a single Jewish person. Similarly, if gentiles told a group of Jews to select one of themselves to be killed or else they will all be killed, then they must all allow themselves to be killed, and they may not hand over to them even a single Jewish person. If, however, they singled a person out by saying to the group, `Give us X to be killed, or else we will kill all of you', then if the person in question is liable to death in the way that Sheba the son of Bichri was they may hand him over, but this procedure should not, from the outset, be followed. If, however, the person in question was liable to death they should all allow themselves to be killed, and they may not hand over to them even a single Jewish person. 6) What has been said [regarding idolatry, adultery and murder, and other commandments] concerning situations forced upon one also apply to ill people. What does this mean? If someone was seriously ill and the doctors said that the cure involves breaching one of the negative commandments of the Torah [or any of the other commandments], then he may breach any of the commandments of the Torah except for idolatry, adultery and murder, in order to cure himself of a dangerous illness. One may not transgress any of these three commandments even to cure a dangerous illness. If one did transgress one of these three commandments and was cured as a result, then one is liable to the appropriate punishment in a Court of Law. 7) From where is it known that even in life-threatening situations these three sins may not be committed? It is written, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your might" - this applies even if God is about to take one's soul. Concerning killing one Jew in order to cure another or to save another from a forced situation; common sense tells us that we dot kill one person to save another. Adultery is compared to murder, as it is written, "...for as when a man rises against his fellow and kills him, so is this matter". 8) When it has been said that commandments other than the three special ones may be transgressed in order to cure a life-threatening illness, it may be done only if the ill person receives some [other] benefit from it, such as if the cure involves eating creeping animals or insects, or chametz on Pesach, or eating on Yom Kippur, but if the cure does not involve some [other] benefit, for instance, if the cure involves making a bandage out of chametz [on Pesach], or from orlah, or he has to drink something bitter made from something forbidden, then even if the illness is not life- threatening, one may commit the sin. Vegetables grown together and meat/milk mixtures, however, are always forbidden, even if their administration does not involve some [other] benefit. Therefore, they are not used medicinally, even without involving some [other] benefit, unless the illness is a life threatening one. 9) If someone had his eyes on a particular woman and then developed a terminal illness, and the doctors said that he cannot be cured unless he has intercourse with that woman, then he may not do so and has to die, even if the woman was unmarried. We do not even allow him to speak to her through some sort of barrier [which does allow them to see each other], even if he will die, so that Jewish girls will not be casual about adultery. 10) One who is not in a forced situation and brazenly sins in order to anger God is desecrating God's Name. Therefore, concerning one who takes a false oath it is written, "...nor shall you profane the Name of your God; I am the Lord". If he desecrated God's Name in the presence of ten, or more, Jews, then he has done so publicly. In a similar vein, anyone who runs away from sin, and fulfils mitzvot for no reason other than that God commands it, in the way that Joseph ran away from his master's wife, is sanctifying God's Name. 11) There are other things which also count as a desecration of God's Name if a man very knowledgeable in Torah and known as being pious does them; things which ordinary people do. Even though these things are not sins, they still count as a desecration of God's Name. Such things include taking possession of an article and not paying for it immediately, even though one may have sufficient funds, and one will be messing the sellers around. Being excessively merry, or eating and drinking a lot amongst ignoramuses also fall into this category, as does speaking to others in an unreposed manner and without a pleasant facial expression, but in a quarrelous and angry manner. Similar things also count. Every great sage has to judge himself, according to his greatness, how to be particular on himself and to act beyond the letter of the law. Similarly, if a wise person is particular to receive people in a reposed manner, and involves himself and receives them with a pleasant expression on his face, and does not hide from them, then even those people who [had previously] mocked him will now respect and honour him, and will trust him. He should, however, not partake of too many meals with ignoramuses, and should always be seen to be busying himself with Torah, and wrapped in his tsitsit and wearing his tephillin, and always acting beyond the letter of the law, which involves not being too withdrawn or bewildered. If he acts in this way, then everyone will adore and love him, and follow his example. This is a sanctification of God's Name, and concerning this it is written, "...and said to me, `You are My servant, Israel, amongst whom I will be glorified".
Sorry for the length.
Too late. I and all the males in my household are circumsised. (you need that drop of blood?)
This chapter explains that all Jews are commanded to sanctify God's Name, when to transgress when under a death a threat and when to die, and defines a what constitutes a desecration of God's Name.1) Every Jew [including women] is commanded to sanctify God's Name, for it is written, "...but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel". We are warned not to desecrate God's Name, as it is written, "Nor shall you desecrate My holy Name"1. What does this mean? If, for example, a gentile forces a Jew to commit a sin by threatening to kill him if he doesn't, then he should commit the sin in order not to be killed, for concerning this commandment it is written, "...which if a man does he shall live by them" - and not die for them. If he allowed himself to be killed by not committing the sin, then he is liable as a suicide [in the World To Come].
2) This is talking about any sin other than idolatry, adultery and murder, for if a gentile told one to commit one of these sins or else he will kill one, one has to allow oneself to be killed by not committing the sin. This difference [between these three commandments and the others] is applicable only when the gentile intends to receive benefit for himself, by, for example, forcing a Jew to build a house for him on the Sabbath, or cook him a meal on the Sabbath, or by forcing a Jewess to have intercourse with him, but if he just wanted the Jew to sin, then the following applies: If there were no, or fewer than ten, Jews present, then he may save his life by sinning, but if there were ten, or more, Jews present, then he has to allow himself to be killed by not sinning, even if the sin involved is not one of the three mentioned above but is one of the other commandments.
3) These matters do not apply during a time of non-persecution, but at a time of persecution, such as when a wicked king such as Nebuchadnezzar arises and decrees against the Jews that they should forego their religion or one of the commandments, then one may not sin and one should allow oneself to be killed, even if the decree concerns a commandment other than the three mentioned above, and whether one is forced into sinning in the presence of ten, or more, Jews, or not.
4) Anyone who says that he will sin and so not be killed but [in the end] was killed without having sinned is liable as a suicide. Anybody who says that he will not sin and will allow himself to be killed, and is killed without sinning, is sanctifying God's Name. If this happened in the presence of ten, or more, Jews, then it is a public sanctification, like what Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, Azariah and Rabbi Akivah and his colleagues did. These are people who were persecuted by a kingdom and above whose level there isn't one, and about them it is written, "But for Your sake we are killed all the day long; we are considered as sheep for the slaughter", and it is also written about them, "Gather My pious ones together to Me; those that have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice". Anybody who is told to sin, but is not threatened with death if he doesn't, and he does sin, then has desecrated God's Name. If this was in the presence of ten, or more, Jews, then it is a public desecration, and he has abrogated the positive commandment to sanctify God's Name by transgressing the negative commandment not to desecrate it. Even so, he is not liable to flogging, for the reason that the situation was forced on him. It need not be said that he is not executed by a Court of Law even if he was forced to commit murder, for the reason that flogging and execution are only for people who [of their own accord] willingly sin in the presence of witnesses who warned him, for concerning one who gives of his children to Molech it is written, "Then I will set My face against that man". According to tradition, we have learnt that the word "that" comes to exclude those people who are forced to sin, or who do so inadvertently or accidentally. Since one who is forced to commit idolatry, the worst sin of all, is not liable to karet, and it need not be said that he is not executed by a Court of Law either, then how much more so this rule applies to the other commandments of the Torah. Concerning adultery it is written, "...but you shall do nothing to the girl". {If, however, one could have saved oneself by running away from the [jurisdiction of the] wicked king but one didn't, then one is like a dog who returns to its vomit, and one receives the status of a wilful sinner [with respect to idolatry], and one will be banished from the World To Come and descend to the depth of Hades.}
5) If a group of gentiles said to a group of [Jewish] women, `Give us one of you and we will debauch her, or else we will debauch all of you', then they [may not select a `victim' and] must allow themselves all to be debauched, and they may not hand over to them even a single Jewish person. Similarly, if gentiles told a group of Jews to select one of themselves to be killed or else they will all be killed, then they must all allow themselves to be killed, and they may not hand over to them even a single Jewish person. If, however, they singled a person out by saying to the group, `Give us X to be killed, or else we will kill all of you', then if the person in question is liable to death in the way that Sheba the son of Bichri was they may hand him over, but this procedure should not, from the outset, be followed. If, however, the person in question was liable to death they should all allow themselves to be killed, and they may not hand over to them even a single Jewish person.
6) What has been said [regarding idolatry, adultery and murder, and other commandments] concerning situations forced upon one also apply to ill people. What does this mean? If someone was seriously ill and the doctors said that the cure involves breaching one of the negative commandments of the Torah [or any of the other commandments], then he may breach any of the commandments of the Torah except for idolatry, adultery and murder, in order to cure himself of a dangerous illness. One may not transgress any of these three commandments even to cure a dangerous illness. If one did transgress one of these three commandments and was cured as a result, then one is liable to the appropriate punishment in a Court of Law.
7) From where is it known that even in life-threatening situations these three sins may not be committed? It is written, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your might" - this applies even if God is about to take one's soul. Concerning killing one Jew in order to cure another or to save another from a forced situation; common sense tells us that we dot kill one person to save another. Adultery is compared to murder, as it is written, "...for as when a man rises against his fellow and kills him, so is this matter".
8) When it has been said that commandments other than the three special ones may be transgressed in order to cure a life-threatening illness, it may be done only if the ill person receives some [other] benefit from it, such as if the cure involves eating creeping animals or insects, or chametz on Pesach, or eating on Yom Kippur, but if the cure does not involve some [other] benefit, for instance, if the cure involves making a bandage out of chametz [on Pesach], or from orlah, or he has to drink something bitter made from something forbidden, then even if the illness is not life- threatening, one may commit the sin. Vegetables grown together and meat/milk mixtures, however, are always forbidden, even if their administration does not involve some [other] benefit. Therefore, they are not used medicinally, even without involving some [other] benefit, unless the illness is a life threatening one.
9) If someone had his eyes on a particular woman and then developed a terminal illness, and the doctors said that he cannot be cured unless he has intercourse with that woman, then he may not do so and has to die, even if the woman was unmarried. We do not even allow him to speak to her through some sort of barrier [which does allow them to see each other], even if he will die, so that Jewish girls will not be casual about adultery.
10) One who is not in a forced situation and brazenly sins in order to anger God is desecrating God's Name. Therefore, concerning one who takes a false oath it is written, "...nor shall you profane the Name of your God; I am the Lord". If he desecrated God's Name in the presence of ten, or more, Jews, then he has done so publicly. In a similar vein, anyone who runs away from sin, and fulfils mitzvot for no reason other than that God commands it, in the way that Joseph ran away from his master's wife, is sanctifying God's Name.
11) There are other things which also count as a desecration of God's Name if a man very knowledgeable in Torah and known as being pious does them; things which ordinary people do. Even though these things are not sins, they still count as a desecration of God's Name. Such things include taking possession of an article and not paying for it immediately, even though one may have sufficient funds, and one will be messing the sellers around. Being excessively merry, or eating and drinking a lot amongst ignoramuses also fall into this category, as does speaking to others in an unreposed manner and without a pleasant facial expression, but in a quarrelous and angry manner. Similar things also count. Every great sage has to judge himself, according to his greatness, how to be particular on himself and to act beyond the letter of the law. Similarly, if a wise person is particular to receive people in a reposed manner, and involves himself and receives them with a pleasant expression on his face, and does not hide from them, then even those people who [had previously] mocked him will now respect and honour him, and will trust him. He should, however, not partake of too many meals with ignoramuses, and should always be seen to be busying himself with Torah, and wrapped in his tsitsit and wearing his tephillin, and always acting beyond the letter of the law, which involves not being too withdrawn or bewildered. If he acts in this way, then everyone will adore and love him, and follow his example. This is a sanctification of God's Name, and concerning this it is written, "...and said to me, `You are My servant, Israel, amongst whom I will be glorified".
Aahh, there that’s better. ;^)
-ksen
Hey, why didn't I think of that? :-) Thanx.
Yes...something like that. :-) I believe that the Lord of the old testament that dealt with Abraham Moses et al was Christ before he became incarnate as Jesus.
Sin somehow keeps the "door" closed between us in our universe and God, outside the universe (our reality), but Christ somehow holds that door open. I'm not saying that you personally don't have that door open because perhaps it's possible know Christ without knowing the name Jesus? I'll probably get ragged on by someone for saying that... :-)
What then would you say to those who claim that they know what Catholics are really doing despite not being able to get one RC here to agree to it? Or is "reading hearts" one of the charisms that I didn't know about?
Now just when have we ever "ragged on" you? :-)
I guess with the new thread you've missed the conversation. The NC's were accused by Pegleg of reading hearts regarding the worship/veneration of Mary. I'm illustrating the absurd to make a point.
lol...just going into my prevent defense...
I don’t have to read hearts to know what the Church teaches. I also give people credit for understanding and following the teaching, something you will not do. You think there are large numbers of Catholics who do not understand the teaching and therefore worship Mary. Either that or you think we are lying.
I notice you avoided my question. Why is that? It wasn't that tough.
You have to read hearts to know that others understand the teaching.
Oh this question? Yes, I would read your heart and determine some form of idol worship.
For instance, the veneration of Mary was a practice of which Martin Luther approved. He believed that Hail Mary should be spoken by those strong in their faith, but not by those who were weak. Because the veneration of Mary was not a matter challenged by Luther or his peers, it was not important to the Reformation and has not survived in the Lutheran Church as a robust tenent. Lutherans share the Catholic view of the perpetual virginity of Mary, however.
Sorry. I thought you were saying that he couldn't know that some RCs weren't worshiping Mary and I was pointing out that plenty of NCs seem to think that they can tell that they are. Instead you are saying that he can't tell that some NCs have a problem distinguishing between worship/veneration without reading their hearts?
You're right. I've fallen (behind) and I can't get up.
I can, however, say that it doesn't take a mindreader to see that some NCs have a problem distinguishing between the two since they come right out and say that there is no difference (I don't need to read minds to take them at their word). And I don't need to read hearts to assume that very few RCs (if any) "worship" Mary if none of them ever come on here and defend the term.
I hope you had a great Easter by the way.
That's interesting. On what do they base that view? Some here think that the RCs didn't invent the concept until well after you guys broke off.
You have found, quite simply, the most profoundly important, and most perfect work concerning devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary -- Saint Louis Marie de Montfort’s True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. We present the work here in its entirety. It is the surest and most complete work on devotion to Our Blessed Mother, and the clearest road map ever written on how to live your life in Christ. Pope John Paul II has called it the most important book he has ever read, and it is what has made him such a Marian Pope, effecting every decision that effects us as Catholics.
I assume the Pope has read the Bible and, if this is true, it is not the most important book he has ever read??
What? You think Catholics actually read the Bible or something?
(Or could it be that the Bible is not in the same class as other books written by man alone?)
SD
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