The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Havoc]

Amazing. Simply amazing. I rest my case.

You didn't even make a case. Exodus 20 shows us that making an image and bowing to it is idolatry. That's part of your mariand devotions so it most certainly qualifies it as such.

Second: Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Now name me any empire since Christ that both Put Christians to death and because of the way that empire was structured, also ordered other authorities under their jurisdiction to do the same. There are none but that of the Holy Roman Empire which was headed by the Roman Catholic Church.

Prove otherwise. It's not like history happened in a vacuum. If it was the Krishans I'd say it was the Krishans. But studying History points to one place. Prove me wrong. This is what we call - not a hollow charge or slur; but drawing conclusions based on the facts before us. If the facts don't do you any favors, the way to fix that is to find the facts that do and get in line with them - not whine that the facts paint you in a bad light. LOL.

[biblewonk]

Every hear of the Fifth Commandment? That's one ... but what does it matter really. For you evangelicals your paradigm is too small. It just isn't "Where is it in the Scritpure?" You start with Jesus and the Church he founded and you look to see what has been believed in the beginning by the Church as St. Vincent of Lerins counseled the Church. But you guys can't even read the Church fathers or the Cappadocian fathers without trying to edit them into sounding like John Calvin or whoever.

Honor your father and your mother falls way short of what is needed. Scripture erases human relationships in heaven anyway. There is no spiritual relationship between Jesus and His mother so there is no scriptural support at all for your beliefs. I have no idea what your point is about church fathers. The church has one head and that's the Lord Jesus Christ. Other than that there are 12 apostles and the Word of God.

There really will be a section of Purgatory just for you guys who will be whining "But it ain't Scriptural! Why are we here?!?"

Yeah and 70 naked virgins after that. Making up doctrine is so fun! It's kind of hard on your eternity though according to my bible.

[Fury]

Yeah, just what I thought. You can't take a redirect and I have answered the pointed question. Yours is moot.

I wish you would not do this, so please stop. You can disagree with Havoc and not resort to that.

[Fury]

Sorry, the sentence in italics should have been:

Arrogant trash from a piece of arrogant trash

[Fury]

He's an ear tickler - and so far as I can see, that's all.

When the facts and debate do not go your way, you have to resort to this, eh?

[history_matters]

Nope. Hit the abuse button. Get me banned. I could care less now.

Havoc is a menace and all of you who enable him are as bad.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Could you be confusing others with yourself? You have been asked several pointed questions on TNS by several people and apparently, when you can't use facts, logic, reasoning and faith you either ignore them or worse. That is indeed sad...

What are you talking about? Hes given you guys verse after verse along with what he believes God is saying in them and you ignore them. That is indeed sad....

BigMack

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The thing is that you are so dense you can't see the Scripture behind everything he writes. Unless someone cuts and pastes it from the Bible online, you think people don't use Scripture. Lord God Almighty have mercy on you for being so disrespectful to a priest and such an arrogant cuss.

May the Lord have mercy on you and the priest for disrespecting someone who respects scripture and rightly divides the word of truth you arrogant cuss.

[SoothingDave]

Yeah, just what I thought. You can't take a redirect and I have answered the pointed question. Yours is moot.

Havoc, if I had any idea what you were talking about, I would answer you. I thought I was clear. What part of my question did you not understand or want to answer? Is contraception immoral?

Just answer the question, please.

SD

[IMRight]

Now name me any empire since Christ that both Put Christians to death and because of the way that empire was structured, also ordered other authorities under their jurisdiction to do the same

I'm not sure how "the way that empire was structured, also ordered other authorities..." stuff come from Revelation, but we could have a party listing all the "empires" that put christians to death and created martyrs.

Rome (long before the christians made it "holy")
China (today)
Iran (today)<
Iraq (today)<
Afganistan(today)<
and on and on and on and on.......

[history_matters]

I'm glad to finally meet the Protestant authority who decides how Scripture is to be rightly understood.

[SoothingDave]

The Orthodox Christian belief on this is apparently similar to the orthodox Jewish teaching. We look at the openness to children overall, rather than considering every single sexual act.

And I would imagine, is what the Catholic teaching in practice generally is. I certainly don't want to make the good the enemy of perfection here.

Certainly, we must admit that the introduction of the pill has contributed to the "sexual liberation" which has caused much havoc in our society.

SD

[Wordsmith]

May the Lord have mercy on you and the priest for disrespecting someone who respects scripture and rightly divides the word of truth you arrogant cuss.

II - Sorry, but I must have missed the post where father_elijah was disrespectful of Havoc. f_e's posts here, as far as I've seen, have been as much a model of respect as others that I admire here, such as ksen and angelo.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I'm glad to finally meet the Protestant authority who decides how Scripture is to be rightly understood.

It's about time. For 1,500 year you and yours haven't been very good at it.

[IMRight]

Havoc is a menace and all of you who enable him are as bad.

Sometimes he is. I can't deny it. But you do a pretty good impression yourself. And you don't do our "side" any credit by acting that way. Sorry.

Take 15min to pray about it.

[history_matters]

Thanks for reminding me why no one should every embrace Protestant doctrine.

[The_Reader_David]

I would spell the word with a capital letter if it occured in the name of a confession or ecclesial body, as for example the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States of America.

[SoothingDave]

It was an analogy, Dave. None of us here sees pregnancy as a "disease".

I know you don't. My apologies for what could be considered a "cheap shot."

If you don't like my example, then consider the one Wordsmith offers in his #3004. Do we wait for God to literally "give us this day our daily bread", or do we work for the money to earn it, and then go to the store and buy it?

Frankly, I don't understand it. The analogy, that is. I could see how it would fit if we were expecting babies to come without our actions, but I dont see how the analogy works otherwise.

SD

[DouglasKC]

Everything Mary has comes from God. And her will is one with His Will. Every Orthodox and Catholic Christian knows that. The pity is that Evangelical Christians are cut off from their Mother Mary because of their steadfast anti-Catholicism and thereby are not able to keep the teaching of honoring father and mother. If you are in Christ Jesus, then she is your mother too and she deserves all the honor you can muster.

Although God looked with favor upon Mary, there is no scripture that even comes close to indicate that Mary is the "mother" of all of us. I can't help but thinking of the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 15:9...

[malakhi]

Certainly, we must admit that the introduction of the pill has contributed to the "sexual liberation" which has caused much havoc in our society.

Sexual mores were loosening before the introduction of the pill. Certainly modernism and relativism greatly contributed to this decline. There have always been those who engage in sexual immorality. The pill just made it easier to do so without the immediate consequence of a pregnancy.