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For Whom did Christ die? - Puritan Logic (Calvinism)
reformed.org ^ | UNK | John Owen

Posted on 05/07/2002 10:20:28 AM PDT by CCWoody

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen


The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

  1. All the sins of all men.
  2. All the sins of some men, or
  3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

  1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
  2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
  3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"




TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: calvinism; johnowen
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To: Elsie
... it was ONLY prepared for a certain group of individuals. How did HUMANS end up going there?

Oh, yes, I forgot that you believe Christ's Blood was shed in vain. And you say we Calvinists limit the Atonement.

Humans will be in the Lake of Fire for their sins, which Christ perfectly foreknew before the foundation of the world. Yet, you still insist that Christ actually covered ALL of those sins. And you claim that God will punish people who are 100% forgiven for all eternity.

And you are clearly asserting with the rest of you post that God will throw people who have been perfected forever into hell.

221 posted on 05/10/2002 6:18:49 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
Oh, yes, I forgot that you believe Christ's Blood was shed in vain.

It's real easy to believe this: I can read and understand English - no matter how old it is.......


KJV 2 Corinthians 6:1
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

KJV Galatians 2:2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
 
KJV Galatians 5:2
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
 
(You're not circumcised, are you????)

222 posted on 05/10/2002 6:30:35 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Since xzins has insisted that I not post to him or flag him, I will post this to you.

We Calvinists have not presumed to say how many professing Christians are lost after all. So, xzins has misrepresented us in his "Nazi accusation" post.

We just think that the mess of spurious conversion has become what I would call "unknowably bad." And this is because of the theology which people like xzins are clinging to.

223 posted on 05/10/2002 7:17:16 AM PDT by the_doc
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To: Jerry_M;xzins;Corin Stormhands;RnMomof7
Just an observation, take it for what it's worth: You have been showing a very mean spirit lately.

Note: the word "you" in the following post is a general "you"--not a specific "you."

You know, when non-Calvnists were saying that about the Calvinists, we were summarily dismissed as not knowing what we were talking about. This was all in truth, so it was obviously done in love, correct? We were then given examples of Christ and the Pharisees and how He treated them, and you implied that your actions were just perfectly Christ-like.

We were ridiculed as being too lovey-dovey, too soft on error, enablers of sin and other much worse things. Now, you are complaining about the exact same things we were. Aren't you just being a little too lovey-dovey?

224 posted on 05/10/2002 7:36:26 AM PDT by ShadowAce
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To: xzins; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; Revelation 911; patent; zshhh; P-Marlowe; ShadowAce
xzins, since you've obviously been chosen to be the Calvinist whipping boy du jour, I think it's important to ping people back to your original post and point out that you gave an illustration - maybe a poorly chosen one - but you did not call anyone a "nazi."

Unfortunately killing the messenger is today's theme. We'll see it played over and over and over, probably throughout the weekend.

225 posted on 05/10/2002 7:39:21 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands
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To: Corin Stormhands;RnMomof7;the_doc;Jerry_M;CCWoody
"maybe a poorly chosen one..."

You just can't say it, can you?

226 posted on 05/10/2002 8:10:26 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Corin Stormhands
For whom did Christ die?

Christ died for God....

227 posted on 05/10/2002 8:12:27 AM PDT by carton253
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To: Elsie; drsteve; Jerry_M; RnMomof7
It's real easy to believe this: I can read and understand English - no matter how old it is.......

Yes, it is real easy to read and understand English. Unfortunately, you are not doing it. Notice, that I have quit debating with you. You see, I simply will not waste my time with someone who believes that Christ shed vain blood and that He purposefully covered and remitted ALL sins for one whom He would then trample in His fury. My Lord is not double minded nor does He love a false balance.

Your scriptural errors are more than I have either the time or patience for. Plus, I'm pretty repulsed by your view and think it is disgusting. Make out of that whatever you will.

228 posted on 05/10/2002 8:58:50 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: fortheDeclaration;xzins;jude24
Well your guys followed me around for days reminding me that I had used the term "storm troopers" to "father"..when a) It was not intentional, I was not thinking about the nazis only the abuse button happy RC posters and b) I had no way to know father had been a nazi prisoner

I wrote a personal note to the "father"..But that did not stop your friends from following me around (in fact one alluded to it today)...Xzins called us nazis..direct and he knew what he was doing.

He gets no pass from me.

229 posted on 05/10/2002 9:31:42 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: carton253; xzins; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; zshhh; Revelation 911; P-Marlowe; ShadowAce
Christ died for God....

Interesting point carton. In Christ's human nature, could he have chosen a different path? If not, what was the point of the temptation? If not, what was the point of his prayer?

And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
- Matthew 26:39

The God part of Jesus knew the cross was necessary. The human part of Jesus chose to go forward with it.

230 posted on 05/10/2002 9:51:58 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands
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To: Corin Stormhands
In the Old Testament the burnt offering was offered only for the satisfaction of God. No other strings were attached. It was a sweet smelling savor offered to please God and God alone.

In the Cross, in the willing sacrifice of the Son of God... in the complete obedience and total surrender of the Son... is the true picture of Sonship.

The Son lives for the Father. He surrendered totally to the will of the Father... choosing to fulfill the will of God no matter the price to Himself, instead of escaping what God asked of Him. The Father and He were one and the same because the Son didn't want anything else but the Father. Every word, every movement, every parable and every sermon, every breath, every look, everything was centered in the Father. It is unfathomable. Just trying to type it leaves me shipwrecked... there are not enough words to convey the depth of love, devotion, and joy the Son had for the Father (and visa versa).

What I like to do when I read the Gospels is to watch Him. In His actions with others. So much of His true glory is revealed. To me, the Scriptures aren't a text book... they are a letter from home. In Jesus, I see my high calling. In Jesus, I see just how ruined man was. In Jesus, I see what He is making all of us.

The scriptures are a picture of the Son of God... who clothed in flesh, pitched His tent among us... opened wide the flaps and allowed us to see what no one had ever seen before. The Father perfectly reflected in the Son. It is better than a snapshot. Better than a photo album. So much can be seen in every phrase He utters and every thing He does.

The cross... here is love demonstrated. We have a tendency to make it man centered. What did it mean for me? Who is affected, who is not? Sometimes I think that shallows the sacrifice because we do not know what the cross meant to the Father and to the Son. To me, I can only know what the cross meant in it's "totality" when I see it reflected in the Father.

Christ died for God, and God was satisfied with Christ and has made Him Lord of all.

231 posted on 05/10/2002 10:19:28 AM PDT by carton253
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To: ShadowAce
Are you a mind reader? When I said "you" to xzins, I meant him specifically. If I wanted to be more general, I would have said "you all" (I am married to a native Texan).
232 posted on 05/10/2002 11:52:22 AM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: Jerry_M; ShadowAce
If I wanted to be more general, I would have said "you all" (I am married to a native Texan).

I dunno Shadow, if he knew any real Texans he'da said "y'all."

Just a little Friday afternoon fun Jerry. I'm sure your wife is a lovely woman - but I bet she'd spell it "y'all." ;-)

233 posted on 05/10/2002 11:59:45 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands
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To: Jerry_M; Corin Stormhands; drstevej
would you like a flag from now on when one of the regular posters takes a potshot at me? It won't be a "ping"...it'll say "dagger" instead. You can click to the post to check it out. That way you can monitor other's behavior and show the same mediating attitude.
234 posted on 05/10/2002 2:07:03 PM PDT by xzins
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To: ShadowAce; Corin Stormhands
Aren't you just being a little too lovey-dovey?

Lovey-dovey!!! Shadow, I'm guessing your age at 40-55. Am I even close? (Thanks for the support, BTW.)

235 posted on 05/10/2002 2:23:30 PM PDT by xzins
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To: Corin Stormhands; fortheDeclaration; ShadowAce; Revelation 911; Winston Churchill; Wrigley...
xzins, since you've obviously been chosen to be the Calvinist whipping boy du jour, I think it's important to ping people back to your original post and point out that you gave an illustration - maybe a poorly chosen one - but you did not call anyone a "nazi."

If I'm the "whip du jour," they're probably wasting good heat. I GENERALLY only read the pings. None of the black leather crowd is pinging me to the whipping posts (pun intended.)

It's not a poorly chosen illustration....didn't I include a :-) ? If I didn't, I meant to -- so that makes it all right.

And......I didn't call anyone a nazi. I said that any god who'd preselect some to hell and also throw EVEN the ones who tried to believe in him into that hell would be LIKE the functionaries in a Nazi death camp in their dealings with common Jews and collaborator Jews; e.g. (Mengele, Goebbels, et al)

It's actually based on the recent calvinist questioning of every naysayer's salvation with the "not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord" type of verses.

236 posted on 05/10/2002 2:33:27 PM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7; Corin Stormhands; Winston Churchill
He gets no pass from me.

I can't even handle thinking about that one.

;p)

237 posted on 05/10/2002 2:37:43 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
Sure, but I'll make my specific "mediating" comments via Freepmail.
238 posted on 05/10/2002 2:52:59 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: CCWoody
Make out of that whatever you will.

Ok


Anybody ELSE out in this thread want to play with me then???

Beware though.......
I'm repulsive.

239 posted on 05/10/2002 3:16:59 PM PDT by Elsie
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To: Elsie
I'm repulsive.

I hope you don't think you've cornered the market on that...

240 posted on 05/10/2002 3:29:23 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands
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