For Whom did Christ die? - Puritan Logic (Calvinism)

reformed.org ^ | UNK | John Owen

[CCWoody]

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen

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The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

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[Elsie]

To: Jerry_M; xzins; Elsie

So, how do you reconcile that with what you said here?

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Which YOU you talkin' to?

[ShadowAce]

He was talking to Jerry, but pinged you as an interested party.

[Corin Stormhands]

Which YOU you talkin' to?

Sorry, that was directed to Jerry, but I pinged you since I started that "conversation" in response to your posting of the scriptures above.

[drstevej]

DRSTEVEJ: we are declared righteous based on the work of Christ on the cross for us

ALLEND: True, and members of the Body of Christ share in his work.

DRSTEVEJ: True, we provide the sin that put Him on the cross!

[drstevej]

Your sufferings are self inflicted. Reading my reply carefully might ease your pain. You seem to get exercised by things I did not say.

[RnMomof7]

DRSTEVEJ: True, we provide the sin that put Him on the cross!

Steve is right allend ..Our sins nailed Him to the cross..Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

[Elsie]

I posted that just BEFORE I followed the link and found OUT to whom it was posted!

(Otherwise, it's a slow day!)

[fortheDeclaration]

Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near (Isa.55:6) Why? If you can't do anything about it?

Well, maybe you can do something like 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved'!

Now, if you are a Calvinist you think God put those verses in the Bible to have a good laugh on us, since He really has a secret will that only Calvinists know.

[xzins]

Amen! And to hear the calvinists tell how many christians aren't truly christians, then one would have this god laughing at those who don't make it due to his preselection program and then laughing at the ones who thought they made it but were allowed to be deceived on that subject.

Sorta like the common jews in the holocaust camps and the collaborator jews. The collaborators thought they'd bought a little respect when all along their gold fillings and bodies were due to be scraped from the ovens as well. All along Dr Mengele is laughing at all of them.

[fortheDeclaration]

Sorta like the common jews in the holocaust camps and the collaborator jews. The collaborators thought they'd bought a little respect when all along their gold fillings and bodies were due to be scraped from the ovens as well. All along Dr Mengele is laughing at all of them

Yipes! That is some analogy! How much coffee have you had? I told you need to give it up! :>)

[Codie]

I just don't understand why you guys keep attacking each other.Any real message any of you have will be lost in the "din",of hatered you have for each other.

[Hank Kerchief]

Steve is right allend ..Our sins nailed Him to the cross..Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

To be consistent, Calvinists must say it is only the sins of the elect that nailed Him to the cross, since this verse would only apply to the elect. The non-elect, therefore, have no responsibility in the death of Christ, if the Calvinist's are right.

Hank

[xzins]

That wasn't an attack. It was an illustration.

[sitonit]

I am a Calvinist. Thank you for the clear presentation in the chart. I hope to find time to read the thread.

[RnMomof7]

Re 191 Amen! And to hear the calvinists tell how many christians aren't truly christians, then one would have this god laughing at those who don't make it due to his preselection program and then laughing at the ones who thought they made it but were allowed to be deceived on that subject.
Sorta like the common jews in the holocaust camps and the collaborator jews. The collaborators thought they'd bought a little respect when all along their gold fillings and bodies were due to be scraped from the ovens as well. All along Dr Mengele is laughing at all of them.

It is only polite when gossiping to include the object of your gossip in a flag so they can respond to the lie..not nice X to compare us to nazis

[RnMomof7]

You are right codie..it is one thing to argue scripture or doctrine ,it is another to call some one a nazi...and think it is cute..that was a personal attack...

[jude24]

Its a discredit to anyone when they must stoop to ad hominem attacks to try to win a debate. I've said this to my fellow Calvinists, and I'll say it to the Arminians. Isnt there an old joke that the first side to compare the other to the Nazis is losing the argument?

Argue the logic and the scripture, if you can. "Fight like a man, Scriptures in hand," to quote a popular Christian ska-rap group.

If you cannot rebut the arguments, then dont shout louder or more shrilly. Re-evaluate your positions. You could be wrong. I know I was, when I locked horns with the_doc.

[RnMomof7]

It was just a litle good natured gossip between friends..but I do think if they are calling us nazis when we are not even posting..they are doing it for what ever stray lurker comes by... Hardly godly