Unconditional Election (calvinism)vs. Bible Truth: "God...desires ALL men to be saved" 1Ti2:3,4

http://home.kscable.com/winfieldcofc/newspaper/03election.htm ^ | Clint Brown

[xzins]

Unconditional Election vs. Bible Truth

"God, our Savior... desires all men to be saved." (I Tim. 2:3,4)

Clint Brown

Logic dictates that any doctrine which implies a false doctrine is itself, false. The Calvinistic doctrine of Unconditional Particular Election implies an egregiously false doctrine, and is therefore, false. This doctrine, often called Predestination, is explained by one of its defenders as "the eternal decree of God, by which he has determined in himself, what he would have to become of every individual... For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damn-ation for others" [Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 1, p. 342].

The chief implication of this doctrine is that God is responsible for souls that are lost in hell. To remedy this heretical notion, Calvinists assert that God's choice is "based solely on His own good pleasure and sovereign will" [Steele & Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism (Presbyterian and Reformed Pub. Co.), p. 30].

Calvinistic predestination is actually a misapplication of the sovereignty of God. While God does have an immutable counsel (Heb. 6:17), He may not supercede the limitations set by His own moral nature (e.g., Heb. 6:18). The doctrine of Unconditional Election repudiates the single most profound act of the moral nature of God's will – the creation of mankind "in His image" (Gen. 1:26). Since man is "in His image," he possesses a real moral nature and is capable of making real moral choices that affect his real eternal destiny! But if God has arbitrarily predetermined every individual's ultimate destiny, we are essentially robots, incapable of affecting our eternal future.

God derives no pleasure from the service of automatons (cf. Amos 5:21-24). Rather, He desires a reciprocal love freely offered by His moral creatures. Of all physical creation, only mankind possesses the ability to respond to the loving grace of the Creator through the loving obedience of faith. Contrary to the indictment of God's justice provided by Calvinistic predestination, the Bible says that God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). Contrary to the heretical implication of Unconditional Election, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9).

Though not all will be saved, the choice is yours.

[Revelation 911]

you are too hysterical - LOL - nice cartoon

[ShadowAce]

I don't understand what attracts people to believe in Calvinistic predestination.

I believe that what attracts them is that they don't trust their own beliefs and decisions to be saved. Thus, if all the decisions have been made for them, then they don't have to worry about growing in their faith. They don't have to learn anything, because God as already predetermined everything the believer is going to do. They don't trust themselves (or the Lord) to truly evangelize. They can say "Repent and believe!" to everyone, but they don't have to go after people who initially refuse them as those people are not "elect."

[Catholicguy]

and unfortunately, Dave Armstrong went on a theological tangent in response. I say this is unfortunate because this line is the core of his opponent's thinking, and, get this, it can be refuted by logic. Because it is a straightforward logical fallacy. The debate could have ended right there. But it didn't

Excellent post, Gold, - dense with learning and logic. Ideologues will not be moved off their position. "Real" Marxists never capitulate to reality nor do "Real" Darwinists change their spots - like, Stephen Jay Gould did, they just rhetorically repackage the hoary "hopeful monster" theory as "punctuated Equilibrium," to account for their inability to provide convincing evidence for their putative "scientific" theory. No, any countervailing evidence to their ideology is reinterpreted to quell the possibility of cognitive dissonance.

[Catholicguy]

If one can't distinguish between God's knowing and causing, then He would become the author of evil, which hardly anyone on either side believes.

This was lifted from that Armstroing debate. There are some on these threads that do think God is the author of evil. They think it ontologically ineluctable ( I know I could have written that differently but those words sound neat together)

[Revelation 911]

Is Philip Schaff one of your heroes???

never heard of him - Ive got two heroes - Jesus and the guy who invented plain red pizza (no cheese) with anchovies, possibly including the saint who created Linguine with white clam sauce, provolone, white wine, red wine, miller genuine draft, & doritos (only with french onion dip) - everything else is mans construct

[Revelation 911]

I guess everybody is saved then if you take the Arminian way out and don't bother to look further than the modern meaning of these words and don't bother looking at things like context etc.

shallower yet

[Revelation 911]

They think it ontologically ineluctable ( I know I could have written that differently but those words sound neat together)

Yeah - but my eyes hurt

plain english for us nine to fivers, or at least little tiny plain english translation at the bottom - besides, moneys too tight to be usin expensive words like that

[drstevej]

Anchovies make any pizza resistable. Even if the cook's name was Grace!

[ShadowAce]

What's the point of pizza if you don't get the cheese?

[Revelation 911]

What's the point of pizza if you don't get the cheese?

I do not know your god LOL

Ok, Its a holdover from my Catholic days - self denial LOL - Ok maybe just a pinch on real goats milk romano -

[Revelation 911]

Anchovies make any pizza resistable. Even if the cook's name was Grace!

You sir with all due respect are a child of the devil for suggesting as much ! ;)

[vmatt]

Then where the Calvinists go off into blasphemy is when they argue that God's grace is impossible to resist, and so the fact that some men go to hell is proof that God never gave them the grace to be saved in the first place, but rather created them for no other purpose than to send them to hell.

Do you mean like these Jude was speaking of?

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

[vmatt]

Look, I am well aware that there are certain scripture passages which you Calvinists claim as proof-texts for your doctrines. I could argue interpretation with you, but I just don't care to. My experience with you Calvinists is that you are so committed to your doctrines that you are not going to entertain alternate interpretations.

I resent your labelling me anything I am not a Calvinist. You and many others here attempt to box everyone in some nice convenient label so your rejection can be wholesale when we are fellow believers with you. You accuse of another interpretation then provide none for the scriptures I supplied. By doing these things you border on sinning against the children of God but not to worry, you are in good company here.

[xzins]

3 Beloved, all diligence using to write to you concerning the common salvation, I had necessity to write to you, exhorting to agonize for the faith once delivered to the saints, 4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord -- Jesus Christ -- denying,

The above is from Young's Literal Translation of the passage of Jude in question.

long ago having been written beforehand to this judgement.....that certainly opens up different avenues of approach, doesn't it?

WRITTEN about long before to this judgement. In other words, this kind of judgement was written about long before for these kind of lacivious men. Nothing eerie, spookie there, was there?

[vmatt]

WRITTEN about long before to this judgement. In other words, this kind of judgement was written about long before for these kind of lacivious men. Nothing eerie, spookie there, was there?

Study the word ordained. Sometimes in order to obtain the proper meaning of words we look to other uses of the same word in scripture.

13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.