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East and West
Sapphires | Jonathan Cahn

Posted on 02/03/2003 12:01:34 PM PST by WhatNot

It is written in Psalms, "As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us." This is amazing, because it was written before it was shown that the earth is round. It says, "as far as the east is from west," not "as far as the north is from the south." Because the earth is a sphere that spins on its axis, with an end at the North pole and an end at the South Pole, you can measure the distance between north and south. So if scripture had said, "He removed our transgressions from us as far as north from south," we could have measured the distance - a few thousand miles.

But Scripture said, "as far as the east is from the west." If you go east or west around the world, you just keep going, without end. The directions of east and west are infinte - and so is the separation God puts between us and our transgressions. So don't be hindered by sin, or by past failures. Rejoice, you are totally free. He has removed your sins, your past failures from you - as far as the east is from the west.

TODAY'S MISSION
Make an envelope marked "Removed, as far as East from West" Write on a slip of paper the one thing that is nagging at you today, a past sin or bad habit you need to get away from. Place it in the envelope and send it on its way, to the trash.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: daven; erev; kavanah
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Isaiah 44:21-22
21) "Remember these, O Jacob, And Israel, for you are My servant; I have formed you, you are My servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me! 22) I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, And like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you."


1 posted on 02/03/2003 12:01:35 PM PST by WhatNot
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To: w_over_w; Ff--150
"ping" -n-a- Remembrance - Space Shuttle Columbia Crew -

NASA, SPACEHAB, and members of the STARS Academy have been preparing for the STS-107 mission for over two years. With the debut of SPACEHAB’s Research Double Module on this flight, over 100 experiments are expected to take place onboard the U.S. Space Shuttle Columbia.

Seven talented astronauts will be flying this critical research mission. They include Mission Commander Rick Husband, Pilot William "Willie" McCool, Payload Commander Michael Anderson, Mission Specialist 1 Kalpana Chawla, Mission Specialist 2 David Brown, Mission Specialist 3 Laurel Clark, and Payload Specialist 1 Ilan Ramon. For the STARS Academy locker, Anderson, Chawla, and Ramon are the assigned crew.

As the 113th shuttle mission and Columbia’s 28th flight, this shuttle just celebrated the 20th anniversary of its maiden voyage. Columbia returned to service, fresh from a year and a half of maintenance and upgrades that have made it better than ever. More than 100 modifications and improvements have been made to make Columbia ready for flight on STS-107. Highlights include a “glass cockpit” with nine full-color, flat-panel displays, reduced power needs, old wire removal, and a user-friendly interface.

May God's Holy Spirit bring Fullness, Wellness, Wholeness & Comfort to all the family & friends left behind.

2 posted on 02/03/2003 12:03:43 PM PST by WhatNot
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To: WhatNot
A beautiful psalm.

[0] A Psalm of David.
[1] Bless the LORD, O my soul;
and all that is within me, bless his holy name!
[2] Bless the LORD, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits,
[3] who forgives all your iniquity,
who heals all your diseases,
[4] who redeems your life from the Pit,
who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,
[5] who satisfies you with good as long as you live
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.
[6] The LORD works vindication
and justice for all who are oppressed.
[7] He made known his ways to Moses,
his acts to the people of Israel.
[8] The LORD is merciful and gracious,
slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
[9] He will not always chide,
nor will he keep his anger for ever.
[10] He does not deal with us according to our sins,
nor requite us according to our iniquities.
[11] For as the heavens are high above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
[12] as far as the east is from the west,
so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
[13] As a father pities his children,
so the LORD pities those who fear him.
[14] For he knows our frame;
he remembers that we are dust.
[15] As for man, his days are like grass;
he flourishes like a flower of the field;
[16] for the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
and its place knows it no more.
[17] But the steadfast love of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting
upon those who fear him,
and his righteousness to children's children,
[18] to those who keep his covenant
and remember to do his commandments.
[19] The LORD has established his throne in the heavens,
and his kingdom rules over all.
[20] Bless the LORD, O you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his word,
hearkening to the voice of his word!
[21] Bless the LORD, all his hosts,
his ministers that do his will!
[22] Bless the LORD, all his works,
in all places of his dominion.
Bless the LORD, O my soul!

What do you, as a Christian, make of this being in the present tense (or, in the translation of the verse you provide, the past tense)?

3 posted on 02/03/2003 12:09:51 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: WhatNot
Isaiah certainly has a way of expressing the doctrines of Calvinism, don't you think?
4 posted on 02/03/2003 12:15:06 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
I think rather that he has a way of expressing the doctrines of Judaism. But that's just me. ;o)
5 posted on 02/03/2003 12:22:04 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: WhatNot
But Scripture said, "as far as the east is from the west." If you go east or west around the world, you just keep going, without end. The directions of east and west are infinte - and so is the separation God puts between us and our transgressions.

Since you already noted that the earth is a sphere, has it not also occured to you that if one goes north around the world, one could just keep going, without end?

6 posted on 02/03/2003 12:23:41 PM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears about the Tao, he laughs out loud)
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To: angelo
I'm not sure I understand what you are asking, what is the "this" you are referring to. Do you mean the whole Psalm, the concept of Sin being removed, or do you mean something else?
7 posted on 02/03/2003 12:24:25 PM PST by WhatNot
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To: WhatNot
Do you mean the whole Psalm, the concept of Sin being removed

Both, but the removal of sin in particular. In what manner do you believe that their transgressions were removed, considering that this was 1,000 years before the birth of Jesus?

8 posted on 02/03/2003 12:29:11 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: WhatNot
Whatnot, I just missed seeing the shuttle go by, as from my front porch I would have seen it break up; I was outside with my back to it and came inside to work on the switch to the front porch light when the explosion hit rattling the windows and shaking the wall. Since I was on a live electrical curcuit, I backed off for a second and resumed tightening the loose wire when the rumbling began. Again, the walls and windows shook. I finished the job and called the Mrs. and she hadn't heard anything.

This was just after 8:00 am local. I got on the internet and went to FR about twenty to nine and read a listing of the shuttle exploding over texas, thinking this was a nut at first, but when I read it and saw the time and location I knew that's what the explosion had been and I turned on tv and our local station here had caught it on video, which is what you have seen no doubt

Prayers for the families and friends. N

9 posted on 02/03/2003 12:41:21 PM PST by Ff--150
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To: angelo
Transgressions were transferred to animals, the innocent animals took on the guilt of our sins, but the sin nature could not be dealt with once and for all untill Christ came.
10 posted on 02/03/2003 12:44:29 PM PST by WhatNot
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To: Pahuanui
Since you already noted that the earth is a sphere, has it not also occured to you that if one goes north around the world, one could just keep going, without end?

BUT--you are not always traveling north. Once you hit the pole, you will begin to travel south. Hence--north DOES meet south.

Now, if you travel east, there is never a point on this earth at which you will start to go west (without changing direction).

11 posted on 02/03/2003 12:46:43 PM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: WhatNot
Transgressions were transferred to animals, the innocent animals took on the guilt of our sins, but the sin nature could not be dealt with once and for all untill Christ came.

So their sins were forgiven, but their sin nature remained? And then after Jesus, those who believed in him had their sin nature removed? If so, then why do born-again Christians continue to sin?

12 posted on 02/03/2003 12:47:53 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo; WhatNot
angelo, whatnot's post #10 does not represent Christianity. Perhaps that is the silliness that Rome teaches, but it in no way reflects what the Bible actually teaches.
13 posted on 02/03/2003 12:52:19 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: angelo
If so, then why do born-again Christians continue to sin?

Cause pobody's nerfect.

14 posted on 02/03/2003 1:03:53 PM PST by WhatNot
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To: CCWoody; WhatNot
angelo, whatnot's post #10 does not represent Christianity. Perhaps that is the silliness that Rome teaches, but it in no way reflects what the Bible actually teaches.

I don't think that WhatNot is Catholic.

How would you answer the same question (my #8)?

15 posted on 02/03/2003 1:06:16 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: ShadowAce
BUT--you are not always traveling north. Once you hit the pole, you will begin to travel south. Hence--north DOES meet south.

Now, if you travel east, there is never a point on this earth at which you will start to go west (without changing direction).

Distinction without a difference, I'm afraid. One could still just as easily keep heading north (or south) without changing directions. Travel in a static vector is not in any way dependent on the poles.

16 posted on 02/03/2003 1:11:41 PM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears about the Tao, he laughs out loud)
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To: WhatNot
If so, then why do born-again Christians continue to sin?

Cause pobody's nerfect.

Then how is this any different than what Jews at the time of David (or now, for that matter) believed? What does it mean to say that the "sin nature" has been removed, if we continue to sin?

Jews do not believe in the doctrine of "original sin" per se. We believe that we are born with good impulses and selfish or sinful impulses, and that we have a free will choice to choose between them. In this context, even a righteous man does not cease being capable of sin. He still has the impulses, he just doesn't follow them. A righteous man is (generally speaking) not someone who has never sinned, but rather someone who has repented and has been forgiven.

17 posted on 02/03/2003 1:13:53 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo
In what manner do you believe that their transgressions were removed, considering that this was 1,000 years before the birth of Jesus? ~ angelo Woody.
18 posted on 02/03/2003 1:24:55 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: angelo
Look, if you expect me to take you seriously at all and not just as another religion forum thug, then I suggest you stop changing the words I write, especially when those words are written on the very same thread we are posting on RIGHT NOW, and therefore can easily be checked. What I said was with the coming of Jesus Christ the sin nature could now be dealt with, I did NOT say Christ removed it.
19 posted on 02/03/2003 1:30:26 PM PST by WhatNot
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To: WhatNot
This is amazing, because it was written before it was shown that the earth is round. It says, "as far as the east is from west," not "as far as the north is from the south." Because the earth is a sphere that spins on its axis, with an end at the North pole and an end at the South Pole, you can measure the distance between north and south. So if scripture had said, "He removed our transgressions from us as far as north from south," we could have measured the distance - a few thousand miles. But Scripture said, "as far as the east is from the west." If you go east or west around the world, you just keep going, without end. The directions of east and west are infinte

Um. The demarcations on our planet are entirely arbitrary. The fact that it spins on its axis the way it does, by no means requries us to arbitrarily seperate north from south, and not east from west.

We just as easily could have designed a lattitude and longitude system that had a line where east turned into west, but where north and south continued on in infinity.

So I wouldn't put too much stock into that.

On the other hand, using our current system, saying removing something "as far as east is from the west" can mean that the sin is returned to us. If we continue east, we eventually return to our original position.

Let us, instead, regard this Psalm using the conception of the earth then, where East and West were literally the ends of the world.

SD

20 posted on 02/03/2003 1:31:21 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: CCWoody
There is only one way to to be clean and that is if the Lord Himself washes you:

Y'know, I actually agree with you here. Even animal sacrifice was not efficacious without repentance (and in pertinent cases, restitution to the wronged), and it was only efficacious because God said that He would accept it for that purpose. The sacrifice was essentially symbolic, not efficacious in and of itself.

It doesn't matter that the Lord came into this world centuries after David died. The Lord still washed David.

This is the answer I typically get to this question. WhatNot's reply was interesting to me because it was taking a different angle. The fact that the passage from the psalm here is in the present (or past) tense doesn't pose any problem to you, even though the act of expiation wasn't made until 1000 years later?

21 posted on 02/03/2003 1:37:16 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo
The fact that the passage from the psalm here is in the present (or past) tense doesn't pose any problem to you, even though the act of expiation wasn't made until 1000 years later?

You putting God in a "time box?"

SD

22 posted on 02/03/2003 1:38:59 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: WhatNot
Look, if you expect me to take you seriously at all and not just as another religion forum thug, then I suggest you stop changing the words I write, especially when those words are written on the very same thread we are posting on RIGHT NOW, and therefore can easily be checked. What I said was with the coming of Jesus Christ the sin nature could now be dealt with, I did NOT say Christ removed it.

There is no need to get testy. I really am trying to engage in dialogue with you. I'm not trying to misrepresent your position, and if I paraphrase something in a way that fails properly to represent your position, please let me know.

In this case, it is true that in your #10 you stated "...but the sin nature could not be dealt with once and for all untill Christ came". However, you also posted the following earlier in the thread:

Rejoice, you are totally free. He has removed your sins, your past failures from you - as far as the east is from the west. -- original article

Do you mean the whole Psalm, the concept of Sin being removed -- your reply #7

Now I think you can see where I got the "removal" thing from.

Let me try to restate it, and see if I have a clear understanding of your belief. In the case of the "Mosaic covenant", "sin" is removed, but the "sin nature" remains. In the "new covenant", "sin" is removed, and the "sin nature" can now be dealt with? Does this sound right?

23 posted on 02/03/2003 1:47:18 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: SoothingDave
You putting God in a "time box?"

According to Christian belief, God became incarnate in Jesus at a specific point in time. It is legitimate to speak in this context of "before" and "after" the incarnation.

24 posted on 02/03/2003 1:49:48 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo
According to Christian belief, God became incarnate in Jesus at a specific point in time. It is legitimate to speak in this context of "before" and "after" the incarnation.

Yes, but you said "even though the act of expiation wasn't made until 1000 years later?"

The act of expiation, to God, is always present, like any other moment.

The tense of the verbs in Isaiah reflect this.

SD

25 posted on 02/03/2003 1:58:27 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
If that is the case, then why did God establish the levitical sacrificial system at all? He could've just told Moses, "Dude, don't worry about it. I'll take care of it in the future".
26 posted on 02/03/2003 2:05:21 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: SoothingDave
For that matter, why not have Jesus born at the time of Moses or Isaiah instead of when he was? He could have been executed by the Egyptians or Assyrians instead of the Romans. Why that time?
27 posted on 02/03/2003 2:06:48 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo
Let me try to restate it, and see if I have a clear understanding of your belief. In the case of the "Mosaic covenant", "sin" is removed, but the "sin nature" remains. In the "new covenant", "sin" is removed, and the "sin nature" can now be dealt with? Does this sound right?

I'm sorry for the rebuke, however if you look closely just on this thread alone you can see how people love to misquote or ignore entirely what other people are saying so that they can validate their own beliefs. In answer to your question that's about right, Christ gives us the strength we need to turn away from what our flesh loves to be fed "habitual sinning". And Christ also provides forgiveness for all sins we commit against Him, past, present and future if we truly repent, of course, only God knows your heart.

28 posted on 02/03/2003 2:07:12 PM PST by WhatNot
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To: angelo
Remember that I have the whole Book: Hey, the good news is that the saving grace of God was given to the saints before time began.
The saving grace of God was given to David before time began.
The saving grace of God was given to me before time began.

I can't help it if the Arminians who hate the truth of the Bible have confused you angelo. I can only preach to you the things concerning the kingdom of God and of the Reign of Christ. If you believe it, then I am to you the savor of life to life. If you do not believe it, then I am to you the savor of death to death. In either event, I am the sweet savor of Christ to God among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.

Woody.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. ~ Ephesians 1
29 posted on 02/03/2003 2:09:22 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: WhatNot
I'm sorry for the rebuke

That's okay. You don't know me, and I know how these threads can get sometimes! ;o)

Is what you call "sin nature" comparable to what others believe about "original sin" (i.e., a fallen nature passed down to us from Adam and Eve)? Or is it more a matter of, as you put it in your last post, "habitual sin" that is the result of our own past choices and actions?

30 posted on 02/03/2003 2:10:35 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo
If that is the case, then why did God establish the levitical sacrificial system at all? He could've just told Moses, "Dude, don't worry about it. I'll take care of it in the future".

Foreshadowing. God loves a good story, played out in many acts.

Or, if you want to get progressive about it, God was slowly, through the ages, weaning His people away from child sacrifice, to animal sacrifice, to the One Perfect Sacrifice, that can cure all.

For that matter, why not have Jesus born at the time of Moses or Isaiah instead of when he was? He could have been executed by the Egyptians or Assyrians instead of the Romans. Why that time?

Dunno. God has to have some reason, don't ya think? For one, the time was right in the development of the people.

SD

31 posted on 02/03/2003 2:11:58 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave; angelo
The act of expiation, to God, is always present, like any other moment. ~ SD Woody.
32 posted on 02/03/2003 2:15:37 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
Remember that I have the whole Book:

You've made this point already. There is really no need to repeat it. I also "have" several translations of the Christian scriptures, and have read them many times.

Hey, the good news is that the saving grace of God was given to the saints before time began.

Okay, thank you for answering my question.

33 posted on 02/03/2003 2:16:29 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: CCWoody; angelo
The act of expiation, to God, is always present, like any other moment. ~ SD

See what I mean, angelo, about others perverting the truth of the Bible. The atonement was given to the saints before time began, but has been revealed for us at a certain point in history.

I don't know what kind of crazy ideas you have, but I believe the "Atonement" of Jesus on the Cross happened in time, at a particular time and place. God, being eternal and outside of time, has this moment always present to Him. Therefore, He can apply the merits of this atonement to any other point in time. Whether we would consider it "before" or "after" the Crucifixion.

That's what I meant, and I venture angelo understood it without your usual condescending commentary.

Obviously, SD, is making some kind of reference to the weekly murder of the Lord that they believe happens on their altars.

Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about. Nice slur though. Did God make you say that?

SD

34 posted on 02/03/2003 2:20:02 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
God was slowly, through the ages, weaning His people away from child sacrifice, to animal sacrifice

Maimonides speculated that the progression in the Hebrew scriptures was away from animal sacrifice; that it was originally permitted as an accommodation to the wishes of the Israelites, but was gradually restricted over time.

35 posted on 02/03/2003 2:22:13 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo
Maimonides speculated that the progression in the Hebrew scriptures was away from animal sacrifice; that it was originally permitted as an accommodation to the wishes of the Israelites, but was gradually restricted over time.

Yes, we've discussed this before. The "Christ event" may have accelerated this process, which was already in place. We have retained a sacramental or symbolic sacrifice, where the Jews got away from it completely.

SD

36 posted on 02/03/2003 2:25:41 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: angelo
I believe "habitual sin" springs forth from out of our fallen nature, as does all other sin. Unfortunately we do have to live with the consequences of our past actions and the choices we made in our unforgiven state for the rest of our life, but when we come to Christ, He promises to help us through whatever problems we have today, because of our past decisions.
37 posted on 02/03/2003 2:27:45 PM PST by WhatNot
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To: SoothingDave; angelo
I don't know what kind of crazy ideas you have, but I believe the "Atonement" of Jesus on the Cross happened in time, at a particular time and place. ~ SoothingDave Woody.
38 posted on 02/03/2003 2:45:25 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: angelo
Okay, thank you for answering my question. ~ angelo Woody.
39 posted on 02/03/2003 2:50:49 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
The act of expiation, to God, is always present, like any other moment.

I don't know what kind of crazy ideas you have, but I believe the "Atonement" of Jesus on the Cross happened in time, at a particular time and place. ~ SoothingDave

Except that you did not say this. You said that the act of providing that atonement is always present as in a present moment in time. You really said this.

Yes, I did. I also said, "to God." Do you not think God is capable of accessing any moment in time, form his vantage outside of time? I said "the act of expiation, to God, is always present." Meaning not that the expiation is to God (though it is), but that the act is always present to God.

Do you not believe that? Can God not access that moment in time?

I can only be led that you somehow think this is the blasphemous eucharist (sp) you follow, where the Lord is sacrificed on the altar every time you "celebrate" it.

You ar eled to believe wrongly. Examine what I said, and stop trying to bring your erroneous notions about the Eucharist into eveyrthing, in a vain atempt to rpvoe yoru superiority. OK?

Address what I said, not what you are imagining me to say.

SD

40 posted on 02/03/2003 2:51:00 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: CCWoody; angelo
Hey, isn't that much more simple and straightforward than the wild convolutions most people wander down?

Then again, angelo doesn't go on the attack like some people do. Using an unremarkable remark that God can access any moment in time, and use it as a jumping off point to display one's ignorance and hostility.

Oh well.

SD

41 posted on 02/03/2003 2:53:15 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave; angelo; Matchett-PI; Jerry_M
Meaning not that the expiation is to God (though it is), but that the act is always present to God. ~ SoothingDave Woody.

But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Good grief, why would the act need to be present when my perfection was completed in the past?
42 posted on 02/03/2003 3:06:43 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: SoothingDave; Jerry_M
Using an unremarkable remark that God can access any moment in time, and use it as a jumping off point to display one's ignorance and hostility. ~ SD Woody.
43 posted on 02/03/2003 3:10:12 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: Ff--150
You really are close to where a somber part of space history took place, hopefully if ever happens to you again, it will be a more upbeat chapter in the history books...
44 posted on 02/03/2003 3:32:23 PM PST by WhatNot
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To: WhatNot
I believe "habitual sin" springs forth from out of our fallen nature, as does all other sin.

I can agree with this, although I would use the terminology yetzer hara, meaning the evil or selfish impulse, rather than "fallen nature".

but when we come to Christ, He promises to help us through whatever problems we have today, because of our past decisions.

Again I can agree, with the modification that I believe it is God the Father who does this, rather than the second person of a trinitarian Godhead.

45 posted on 02/03/2003 8:36:25 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: CCWoody
Exactly, and you really should repent of your ignorance and hostility.

You are the one showing the hostility, buddy. This is typically un-Christian, but par-for-the-course for a Calvinist.

You keep jumping onto tangential issues, and seem determined to bring the Eucharist into things, when no one except you has mentioned it. You display your ignorance of the idea in the most offensive terms, and then accuse me of "hostility."

another fine witness for Calvinism. Good job. You have spread the Gospel good, my son. Many are drawn by your charm.

I apologize for setting you off by suggesting that God is the master of time. I won't bring it up again, as it is so upsetting to you.

SD

46 posted on 02/04/2003 6:27:01 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: CCWoody; SoothingDave; angelo
Two things. First,

No, SD, the act is not always present to God.

Are you truly arguing God is not, "I AM?" It would seem to me every moment of history must always be present to God, otherwise he would not be trascendent, would be limited, and would, thus, not be "I AM." To assert otherwise would be to be truly blasphemous.

Second,

before time began

Do you not see the paradox in this Scripture? To use the words "before" and "began" perforce connote placement in time, yet the phrase "before time began" argues just the opposite. I believe this Scripture is designed to instill in us, to lead us, to fear of the Lord, to an appreciation of the wonder and awe of God's majesty. It prompts us to consider his transcedence. Similarly, it would be just as correct to say God gave his saving grace to the saints after time ended and that he is giving us that saving grace now.

And while I may lose angelo at this point, I believe this is conncected to why Jesus(or, the Messiah) would be named Emmanuel, God IS with us. Not that God would be with us for thirty-some years. But that God would be with us always and that God always was with us. Thus, every moment must always be present to God.

47 posted on 02/04/2003 7:48:03 AM PST by AlguyA
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To: WhatNot
**May God's Holy Spirit bring Fullness, Wellness, Wholeness & Comfort to all the family & friends left behind.**

Amen!

This post of your deserves its own thread!
48 posted on 02/04/2003 7:55:39 AM PST by Salvation (+With God all things are possible.+)
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To: AlguyA; SoothingDave; angelo; Jerry_M; Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Do you not see the paradox in this Scripture? ~ AlguyA To use the words "before" and "began" perforce connote placement in time, yet the phrase "before time began" argues just the opposite. I believe this Scripture is designed to instill in us, to lead us, to fear of the Lord, to an appreciation of the wonder and awe of God's majesty. It prompts us to consider his transcedence. Similarly, it would be just as correct to say God gave his saving grace to the saints after time ended and that he is giving us that saving grace now. ~ AlguyA Woody.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will
49 posted on 02/04/2003 9:15:31 AM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
The act is not always present to God. The Memorial is!

What other moments in time are not present to God? Super Bowl XXX? The OJ Trial?

Is God is, or is God not outside of time?

I know this is tough, but you might try answering some questions, instead of doing the usual spew.

Do you believe Jesus died on the cross, about 2000 years ago, in history, in time, on this planet earth?

Clearly, the scriptures are teaching us that before the foundation of the world, before chronos, which is the greek word you people are chocking upon, before the first Word of creation was ever uttered, the Lord Himself had already saved all who would ever be saved out of the world He was creating. It is only at a specific point in the history of this age that the Lord revealed that already accomplished salvation to the vessles of His mercy.

So God "revealed" this salvation at a specifc point. Did Jesus actually die and resurrect at this specific point in time? Or did He did before time and only "reveal" it 2000 years ago?

Did Jesus have to die for our sins? If you were saved before the world was even created, then Jesus must have been unnecessary, huh? Does the Cross have any power?

I do not know this atonement that you preach.

I know you don't. Frankly, I don't know what effect JEsus's death had on you whatsoever. You were saved by God's pre-destination, not by His Sacrifice.

My Lord is sitting right now. I have already been perfected forever.

If this is the perfect you, then I don't wish to ever meet the imperfect you.

SD

50 posted on 02/04/2003 10:00:29 AM PST by SoothingDave
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