Paul is telling us how to recognize those who are justified. They are the ones who claim a saving faith and show the evidence (doers of the Law), not the ones who claim belief without change.

Paul is not telling us that doing the law brings justification.

The priest I studied catachism with before conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy emphasized that Protestants who object to veneration of Mary really don't comprehend the Incarnation nor our Savior's two natures.

The priest I studied catachism with before conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy emphasized that Protestants who object to veneration of Mary really don't comprehend the Incarnation nor our Savior's two natures.

The priest I studied catachism with before conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy emphasized that Protestants who object to veneration of Mary really don't comprehend the Incarnation nor our Savior's two natures.

The priest I studied catachism with before conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy emphasized that Protestants who object to veneration of Mary really don't comprehend the Incarnation nor our Savior's two natures.

My only disagreement here is that belief implies obedience. Other than that, I am glad to see you don't go along with the folks who say obedience isn't necessary.

Whoa, not so fast :-)

I'm saying that the gift of salvation is available to us purely by faith. We're given that gift at the moment of faith. Works are NOT necessary to RECEIVE that gift. Works ARE necessary to demonstrate that our faith was genuine.

I was a bit disappointed ;-) that you didn't answer the question at the end of that post... WHEN our faith is genuine, when are we given the gift of the Holy Spirit and marked as a believer - at the moment of placing our faith in Christ, or when our first work is done?

No. Read again. It does not at all say that there is a male God and a female God. Read it again. It says there is a spiritual mother and a spiritual father. Not the same thing at all.

It is EXACTLY the same as wicca with only one slight difference. One and only one word is removed and that is "goddess". Every other thing is the same. This has always been the case with Satan as he has merged wicca with Christianity. He has kept all the interesting things of paganism while keeping quite a few Christian tokens too. It is an amazing tightrope act but it is obviously working well.

That's not what he said. Read it again.

Hold on... ok, I'll stick with my original answer ;-)

Especially in light of Romans 4:3-19.

Furthermore, when Ro 2:13 is read in the whole context of Romans 2, Paul is emphasizing the difficulty (impossibility) of earning salvation by following the law, because without Christ we are all under the judgement of law. We are all sinners and no one can keep 100% of the law.

Paul then brings us into Chapter 3, where he tells us that the law cannot save us, that we all all sinners (3:9), but there's wonderful news that justification is free (v 24), culminating with:

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

So, yes, since v28 clearly states that justification comes APART from observing the law, I'll stick with saying that works are a result of, not a part of, our justification.

I was gonna say "You can say that again" but you beat me to it by acknowledging your multiple posts.

Your point is so true. Consider the iconography which many Protestants abhor. And the splitting of Jesus into two. It's almost Gnostic in the rejection of matter.

SD

That's not what he said. Read it again.

... one more thing, in a sense, you're right. I should have not initially addressed that verse without looking at the context. Paul is not telling us how to recognize believers. Ro 2:13, as I put in post 14 above, really needs to be taken in the context of Ch 2-4.

In light of that, Paul is saying that keeping the law will justify us - if we can keep 100% of it. But no one can, and we are all under the judgement of it without Jesus.

Thaks SD for this explanation. The only issue I have is that we are told in 2Cor. 5:18 that we are already (hath been) reconciled to God by Jesus Christ. It seems what you said applies both the believer and the non-believer on reconciliation as a "fruit" of the mass.

Until the whole world has been set right the process of reconciliation is ongoing. This is a crucial difference between us: I recognize the ongoing effect of Jesus changing me, sanctifying me. It is a process, one in which I can stumble, "fall out of grace" and be restored.

Much "Bible" Christian theology seems to rely on a one time only dose of grace and salvation. Being saved is an event, not a process.

SD

Yeah. Why bother "defining terms." Such a waste. It's so much nicer to misread each other and go off on wild tangents because of using different terms.

Then again, if you don't know what a "work" is how do you know you're not doing it?

SD

Only in the Roman Church.
This is heresy.
Made out of whole cloth.
If you believe otherwise, please direct me to the Scriptural citation.

Gen. 3:15. I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed. He shall crush thy head.

You are agreed, are you not, that this is a prophecy of the coming of the Messiah? You agree that Jesus is the New Adam, do you not? Well then, who is his mother?

109 Posted on 09/10/2001 08:06:46 PDT by allen

Well then, who is his mother? His human mother, another sinner like you and me.

Again, please direct me to a scriptural citation clearly stating that Mary is the NEW EVE.

If Mary is to be called the NEW EVE.That would make Mary co-equal to the Christ.

That is heresy.

1Co. 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on
earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
1Co. 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all
things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord,
Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through
whom we live.

XeniaSt