Free Republic

I know about the military industrial complex in Ukraine, and wold not doubt the pro-referendum ‘activists’ may have gained access to some weapons.

However, from what little research I’ve done, the newest version of RPG30 is produced in Russia and until very recently, was not available for export. There is definitive proof that the “little green men” had these in Slovyansk.

As to videos, I have seen tons of footage from Ukraine including the most recent of Odessa. I should emphasize that this protest was basically young soccer fans but a very small percentage were Right Sector. There is a great YouTube video of a Right Sector ‘provocateur’ almost getting his butt handed to him by an angry crowd of people ( pro Ukrainian supporters ).

And I have seen the barbaric videos such as in Kharkov of the gauntlet of Kiev protesters going through angry Russian speakers and the same in Western Ukraine such as making the one politician get on his knees. And I’ve seen both the police beating people on both sides and police getting beat by both sides, though the ones in Eastern Ukraine for the most part are much more brutal.

I did not see videos of the pro Ukrainians firing at or into the building ( I do not include air soft guns as real guns ) however, I saw pro referendum protestors firing real guns at the other side both on the streets and in the building.

What is also important, the far right has never held much political power in the Rada percentage wise and I doubt they will in the future.

I wrote this in another post, but the Right Sector is not one group. They are a Ukrainian nationalist coalition made up of ordinary nationalist ( patriots ), ultra-nationalists, and the far right such as the Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian National Self Defence ( which people confuse with solely being Right Sector ) and Svoboda which has according to their platform moved more to maybe a Republican Tea Party equivalent.

Here is an article about the Right Sector ( though they incorrectly lump them all in as ultra-nationalists ).

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/after-ukraine-protest-radical-group-eyes-power

As to the protestors on the Maidan being terrorists, I highly disagree. The Maidan protesters started out with students and Ukrainian professionals ( or what little middle class there is in Ukraine ). They were truly peaceful. Of course you will always have agitators or provocateurs in any protest, but in the beginning, there were virtually none of these. As you know, this protest went on for months.

When the police and titushki started to brutally beat these protestors and many incidents were caught on video. This changed the entire movement. Parents, grandparents, civilized people all over Ukraine were outraged and ashamed that the authorities were behaving like animals. So were the street people which became much of the figurative cannon fodder of the front lines while the peaceful protesters had their rallies and listened to speeches and music.

It went from thousands of protestors to at times hundreds of thousands. And the bulk of the footage during these times are going to of emotional, sensational events which gets eyeballs of viewers.

People were tired of the corruption, the institutionalized criminality, the brutality. And yes, 100% it was a coup, but in a political system as corrupt and inept as in Ukraine, the people spoke and demanded the President resign. Were we going to keep abiding by oppressive English law or have the American Revolution?

The EU thing was really in the beginning, and may have even been financed by the West, BUT it changed into the desire for a country that is corrupt and continually under the thumb of the Kremlin to transform to a modern country along the lines of economically like Poland or politically like Finland where living standards get better and there is hope of a better future.

There needs to be fair, transparent, inclusive national elections that can provide legitimacy to a new government truly elected by the people. Is May 25 realistic, probably not. But the sooner the better, and if it is the people’s will, hopefully a new Constitution. I would like to see decentralization and the right to bear arms for sure.

They killed 60,000 Jews, 70,000 Poles and a lot of Russians.

The point of Ukrainian nationalist from this period was that they were for an independent Ukraine with independent Ukraine culture and they were against the Nazis, Soviets, and Poland.

And politically, not religiously, they were lastly against the Jews.

They chose to side with Hitler because Stalin was not an option, but even in 1943 they turned against the Germans.

Of the central and eastern European countries, they were probably the least antisemitic of them all.

Galician Jews lived and worked and were oppressed along with Ukrainians by the Polish before WWII.

But it wasn’t their religion that caused strife, but rather Ukrainians and Jews had a good relationship until the Jews signed a separate agreement with Poland that gave their community more rights.

When the Germans come into the picture, they intensely exploited Ukraine and Jewish animosities through propaganda bombardment ( sound familiar? ).

I agree too.

I do not think Obama has the ability or will to see that Russia or at least Putin has never given up on the cold war.

I believe Putin said something like, the worst catastrophe of the 20th century was the collapse of the Soviet Union.

I truly believe Putin and all his KGB buddies around him ( even though it may be some other initial, FSB, GRU, etc., once KGB always KGB ) want to return the ‘greatness’ of the former Soviet Union.

Ukraine ( Little Russia ) and the Baltic States are essential to the defense of Mother Russia as historically these are potential easy doors to open for European troops to head towards Moscow.

And the Black Sea; Russia absolutely needs access, this being one of the most important reasons for the annexation of Crimea.

But it’s really scary how 82% of Russians highly support Putin, and how Russia is looking more and more like a ultra-nationalist socialist security state that controls the people mainly through media and subsidies and will most likely clamp down on internet freedoms Chinese style.

” I know it’s not a popular opinion, but the “government” in Kiev admitted over the past few weeks that numerous armories had been taken over in the Eastern Ukraine.”

I have thought this same thing, but I have also seen pics of RPG30s in Ukraine which are exclusively 2013 Russian military grade.

But, from an investigative point, this is not conclusive.

Now as to terrorism, taking hostages, beating and torturing hostages ( see Vice News reporter’s account who was held hostage for 2 or 3 days in Slovyansk ), making Ukrainian speaking people ‘register’ at the ‘mayor’s’ office, and killing Ukrainian soldiers; I would have to put this group in the terrorist category.

But one’s terrorists is another’s freedom fighters they say.

Incorrect to an extent.

I know it’s from Wikipedia, but without directing you to a few books:

‘Unlike competing Polish, Russian, Hungarian or Romanian nationalisms in late imperial Austria, imperial Russia, interwar Poland and Romania, Ukrainian nationalism did not include antisemitism as a core aspect of its program and saw Russians as well as Poles as the chief enemy with Jews playing a secondary role.’

‘Nevertheless, Ukrainian nationalism was not immune to the influence of the antisemitic climate in the Eastern and Central Europe, that had already become highly racialized in the late 19th century, and had developed an elaborate anti-Jewish discourse.’

‘However, Ukrainian nationalistic Jews were welcome in the Banderivtsy, provided they adopted the identity of the Galician Karaites, who were regarded as loyal compatriots.’

And this is exactly what happened at the Maidan; Jews fighting next to and with the Right Sector amongst others.

You really should read more about Ukrainian history.

Insurgent fighting is their game.

There’s also 46 million Ukrainians...can’t kill them all.

And your black and white winner/loser, when has that happened in recent history?

‘Dozens of pro-separatist people were burned to death today in a building hit with molotovs from right-sektor.’

Some details need to be added.

First, the Right Sector ( a wide spectrum of ‘right’ leaning groups which include average patriots to the more extreme ultra-nationalists with military experience ) was not the main element of the nationalists protests; they were actually largely young people, students, and soccer enthusiasts ( with their hooliganism that goes with it ), BUT these were Odessans.

I saw many videos of the young patriots wrapped in the Ukrainian flag, but I would say Right Sector members may have been 1 in a 100 if that.

So the patriots were having their peaceful march and they were attacked by an extremely well armed and organized pro-referendum ‘protestors’ ( thought I’d use the Russian media’s classification ).

I have read between 5 and 10 patriots died, I believe all from gunshots.

So the patriots did not back down and chased the pro-Russians back to were they had camps set up outside of a government building.

I am not sure if the pro-Russians were already occupying the building, but they made their way into the building, and as the patriots attempted to get close, they began firing weapons and throwing objects from the roof and I believe from inside the building.

The patriots began throwing Molotov cocktails at the building causing it to catch on fire.

I believe all of the pro-Russians that died was from smoke inhalation.

I could not substantiate the source, but I further read that of the 25 bodies they had identified so far, 15 were from Russia and 10 were from Transnistria ( Moldova ).

There’s a really great research paper out from National Defence Academy of Latvia Center for Security and Strategic Research titled ‘RUSSIA’S NEW GENERATION WARFARE IN UKRAINE:
IMPLICATIONS FOR LATVIAN DEFENSE POLICY’( wow, that’s a mouthful...good thing for copy and paste :)

It lays out Russia’s goals for military capability by 2020, and it’s stunning at how Ukraine is a play by play out of Russia’s changing strategy.

Basically, until conditions are right to go in conventionally, they will wage a cultural war, ‘from direct annihilation of the opponent to its inner decay’, ‘from war in the physical environment to a war in the human consciousness and in cyberspace’(can anyone say trolls), using ‘specially prepared forces and commercial irregular groupings’, ‘from the traditional (3D) battleground to information/psychological warfare and war of
perceptions.’

And they see their enemy as permanent; a permanent war.

It’s really fascinating and very ominous.

Going up against the Russian military/intelligence apparatus with Ukraine’s current resources is like David with a broken arm going up against Goliath.

It seems for most new conscripts particularly for the the National Guard, they should train them in guerrilla tactics, create an infrastructure for an underground resistance, and be ready for a partisan insurgency.

I know the East thinks of Bandera as a Nazi, but he was a nationalist ( not socialist ) fighting a partisan war against Stalin’s Soviet Russia. He aligned with Hitler, but if your choice is Hitler or Stalin, who would you pick ( particularly with Stalin wanting to deport ALL Ukrainians and killing mainly through a manufactured starvation about 25% of the population )?

I’ve paid attention to the situation extremely closely since Fall of last year and done much research.

I believe meddling was and is being done on both sides ( Russia and the West ) but Russia’s security services ( GRU and FSB primarily ) have and are currently deeply imbedded in Ukraine government past and present.

Further, there is Yanukovych’s involvement via his ‘Family’ and criminal cohorts who are believed to be largely financing the ‘protests’ in the East and the South.

Regardless of where the money is coming from, Russia is coordinating and manufacturing instability with the main objectives of creating referendum votes and stopping the national May 25 vote.

Though there are legitimate grievances on both sides of Ukraine, the original student protests for the integration into the EU ( a fantasy for a very long time to come ) morphed into a fight for freedom, democracy, a government and businesses free from corruption/crime. Yes the West in general wanted closer ties to Europe and the East to maintain ties to Russia, BUT neither side wanted or even according to even recent polls want to split or join Russia.